Talk:Cargo cult

Lead is super unhelpful

A person with no familiarity with cargo cults would not be too illuminated by the lead here. The section theoretically complicating the term is poorly-written and grammatically unclear—and also probably not really duly weighted for inclusion in the lead at all, let alone taking up >50% of it. The intro to the Britannica article on the topic is a good example of a helpful lead. Isthistwisted (talk) 02:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the lede could be better worded. It does however reflect what the academic sources we cite in the article have to say on the subject, unlike the unsourced nonsense you tried to replace it with. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Girl don’t get snippy with me Isthistwisted (talk) 07:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

“It should be written in a clear, accessible style” Isthistwisted (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok, feel free to propose a new lede that accurately reflects the article content, in such a style. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

You like it, hoss? Isthistwisted (talk) 02:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Yup. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The lead is still exceptionally academic and inaccessible. It needs to be simplified and clearly explain the origin of the term. Then later, by all means go deep into the anthropology and get technical. Carllottery (talk) 17:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, it’s lead not lede 2603:8001:7800:23C3:912D:DB61:A20:25E2 (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Carllotterry. Andy please stop fighting an edit war and discuss here. Wikipedia isn't a dictionary but it also isn't an anthroplogical encyclopaedia. This page should begin with a birds-eye view of the topic accessible to the general reader - right now it just gaslights the reader. Fastitocalons (talk) 14:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump As per your bio: "I think a fair number of people need to be kicked out of the project just for being lousy writers." Fastitocalons (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I was quoting Jimbo Wales. As for 'gaslighting', read MOS:LEDE: the lede of an article is supposed to be a summary of the article body. And the article body absolutely does not support any suggestion that anthropology 'also' uses a 'colloquial term'. To the contrary, it was anthropology that introduced the term to the outside world, where it was subsequently misapplied. I suggest that before you edit the article further, you take the time to actually do a little research. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

According to the article the term largely isn't used by anthropologists anymore. So the introduction doesn't do a good job reflecting that either. As things stand the whole piece is totally incoherent. As another editor notes, the Caucasian race article begins: The Caucasian race (also Caucasoid, Europid, or Europoid) is an obsolete racial classification of humans based on a now-disproven theory of biological race. It's obvious we need a similar approach here. Why do you disagree? Fastitocalons (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree because the purpose of an encyclopaedic article is to inform the reader as to the subject matter, based on what appropriate sources have to say about it. It is not a repository for random counter-factual gibberish about 'colloquial terms' somehow being taken up by anthropologists. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, at least now you're clearly advocating for a WP:POVFORK. There is no such thing as an "appropriate source", only WP:RS. You might benefit from rereading that again, as you've misinterpreted that policy multiple times on this talk page. TheMissingMuse (talk) 15:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This article is based on actual sources - anthropological texts, metting WP:RS, and describing the subject matter - the only WP:POVFORK involved seems to be one that exists in some peoples heads, where they attempt to use this article to promote some imaginary alternative reality, where the sources actually describe something else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikitionary can't be cited, and per WP:ISATERMFOR / WP:REFERS, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Thank you for reverting Andy. Fastitocalons, there isn't anything strictly wrong in your most recent diff. We actually already say something similar later in the lede: The term has largely fallen out of favour and is now seldom used among anthropologists, though its use as a metaphor (in the sense of engaging in ritual action to obtain material goods) is widespread outside of anthropology in popular commentary and critique Since this article is about the topic of cargo cults (the movements themselves), that's what takes "front and center" stage. Other usage of the term "cargo cult" can be mentioned, but it's not the main topic. That's why it bothers Andy to say that the term is used colloquially one way, and also by anthropologists another way - that would make sense on Wikitionary, but not on Wikipedia. It has been discussed many times if we need some kind of page like Cargo cult (idiom), the closest we had was possibly Cargo cult science but that's been deleted, probably rightly so from what I gather. It's possible to have a Wikipedia page about a word/phrase itself, like how we have Orange (fruit), Orange (color), and Orange (word), but the word itself must be notable, and while there is a robust literature on cargo cults the topic, there is not so much on cargo cult the pop culture metaphor. And for what it's worth I agree with you in spirit that the lede should make more sense (WP:ONEDOWN), look near the bottom of this talk page and in the edit history, I'm working on it, but it needs to be solidly grounded in WP:RS. Leijurv (talk) 15:54, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I've made an edit to try and clear up this confusion while still remaining fully grounded in sources, see here, and my explanation is here. Leijurv (talk) 17:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

A proposal

look i posted the epic maymay tpot image

To growing_daniel followers etc who are pissed off about whatever: maybe I can go epicly viral with a little esoteric illegible tweetfluencing of my own here. Cargo cults are an actual thing that happened in real life, so the Wikipedia article called "cargo cult" is primarily about them.

But the fact of the matter, as I understand it, is that (like most things which exist in real life) cargo cults are a thing that exist in real life, which necessarily have more depth than the kind of allegory that is referenced when the term is used in some guy's essay about Tailwind from the front page of HN lol. Yes? You're with me still?

It is of course true that software engineers from California (such as myself) often use the term to refer to a particular type of being stupid, and maybe we should have a hatnote to e.g. wikt:cargo cult for those who are at this article due to Paul Graham essays. It is also true that the lead of the article as it exists right now is kind of confusingly written, and maybe it should be improved. It is altogether good and proper to do this.

I propose we make a bargain: a bit less piss-and-moan sanctimonious preening from both the tweet rotators and the wikicels? Maybe we even try to write something good on the collaborative encyclopedia project? Yes? jp×g🗯️ 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG: The problem is that the term "cargo cult" is by definition very vague. As The Open Encyclopedia of Anthropology entry on Cargo Cults notes, the term is basically used for any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations. Trying to write something coherent about collectively about what is ultimately, a bunch of quite different local spiritual/political movements is no easy task. I've tried to rewrite the article lead to something more understandable. Hemiauchenia (talk) 09:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Academic encyclopedia's should not be used ahead of more traditional tertiary sources. They are certainly appropriate for a section dealing with the anthropological background of the topic, but using academic sources above general sources is a red flag. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Where the heck did you get the idea that "using academic sources above general sources is a red flag"? That is completely and utterly at odds with what WP:RS says. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Come on, this isn't that hard. From WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. TheMissingMuse (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to suggest that academics who have actually studied a topic in depth are less reliable than tertiary sources written by non-experts? And which 'viewpoints' are you referring to anyway? You seem to be suggesting there is some sort of serious debate over the 'cults'. Where is this debate occurring? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm just quoting and applying policy. When determining how much weight to afford a particular framing of a topic, the best place to look is more general sources. What I'm seeing here is an assertion that some narrow academic sources be used instead of having the article represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

What viewpoints? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

No, you are misinterpreting policy. When discussing an academic topic, academic sources are the best way to find cites.

If you're arguing to expand this article's focus beyond the academic, then that's whole different conversation. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, the circular argument. "This is a purely academic topic because purely academic source are academic." Well played. TheMissingMuse (talk) 04:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that if anybody on this talk page was willing to just say what the hell they actually thought instead of scoring epic dunks we might run some >1% risk of figuring out what to do about the article within the next hundred thousand words. jp×g🗯️ 06:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel like every time I get a ping on this talk page, I lose brain cells. Okay, so here's my deal: look at the article Lemming. This is to all of you -- @AndyTheGrump, Hemiauchenia, and TheMissingMuse:. Do we all see how this article is structured? It mentions the very pervasive myth, to which "lemming" in colloquial usage nearly always refers, and then it mentions that this is not really the case. Is this something we could do here? Yes? No? jp×g🗯️ 06:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I've no objection to that, though it needs to be properly sourced, and unambiguous. And not presenting the popcult myth as anything more than it is. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Certainly. As noted, I'll be editing the article in due course. Right now there's just too much activity from an over-invested editor to make it worth my time to try and improve things. At some point we'll be able to steer the article away from an overly jargon laden academic thesis review to an actual encyclopedic article. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Please do not misinterpret my comment above as agreement with anything you have proposed. I was replying to JPxG, who understands the purpose and policies of Wikipedia, rather than to you, who appear not to. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

As illustrated several times in the discussion above, you're the one advocating against policy, not me. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Split the article?

I think the big debate here is between people who think Cargo cult is for academic anthropological discussion of a wide range of loosely-connected cults, versus people who think it should be about the metaphor that's in common use. And honestly, I think both of them are actually article-worthy. Academic analysis is certainly worthy, but common metaphors also frequently have pages of their own. I'd therefore propose that we make this a disambiguation page, where the current content is moved to (e.g.) Cargo cult (anthropology) and the @growing_daniel crowd gets Cargo cult (metaphor). That should neatly sidestep the edit wars, and avoid a sloppy half-and-half article, or one that simply omits one side of it or the other. Alsadius (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

What sources are you proposing should be used for the 'metaphor' article? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, you could probably just use the article as it stood two years ago in that spot. It had quite a few references, most of which seem fairly legit to my eyes.

I know you were the one to do most of the changes since then, so I expect you will oppose this suggestion (since I'm sure you changed it for reasons that you believed to be good and sufficient), but I think the core disagreement you had with the old article was that it was about the metaphor, not the anthropology. The article you pushed towards did a much better job with the anthropology, which is good to have covered, but I don't think the metaphor should be lost in that change. Alsadius (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

No, just no. What you are proposing is a WP:POVFORK, which is entirely contrary to core Wikipedia policy, and has never been permitted. The old article didn't discuss cargo cults as a metaphor, it instead made claims about the actual 'cults' that weren't in accord with what appropriate sources (i.e. those from anthropology, the only field to have actually studied the topic) had to say on them. Any article on a metaphor must, per both Wikipedia policy and common sense, discuss it as a metaphor, rather than treating the metaphor as if it were reality. For that, we need sources discussing the cult metaphor as a metaphor. And the only sources I'm aware of that do that in any real depth are the writings of Lamont Lindstrom: an anthropologist who has noted the continuing interaction between the metaphor (which has taken a life of its own) and Melanesian culture and politics. Working from that, it would be very difficult to justify splitting the article at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Not at all. I don't think this is actually a POV difference, I think it just looks like one. "What were the cults actually like?" and "What does pop culture mean when using the phrase?" are wildly different questions. Trying to put them in the same article is a fundamental error, and the POV disputes are about which of the questions to emphasize answering, not about any actual disagreements on the content of either answer. But it's still an actual metaphor in common use, which is separately WP:N from the anthropology.

And yes, I think the metaphor is popular enough to warrant an article. This isn't the kind of reference one would put into a finished article, but here's a Google Ngrams plot of the term against four other common metaphors (and the first four I thought to check, no cherry-picking). All four of the others have Wikipedia articles (1, 2, 3, 4). "Cargo cult" is currently close to "have your cake", and several times more popular than the other three.

And those articles actually give good guidance on how one could write it, if you wanted to do a cleanup at the time of the fork. Boiling frog, for example, has a section on experimental evidence, concluding that it's not a real phenomenon. And by all means, include a "Modern scholarly consensus is that the metaphor is a misunderstanding of the cults" note on the metaphor article. But Boiling Frog still gets an "as a metaphor" section, with examples from mass literature and pop culture. Remember, the metaphor article should not be written from an academic POV, because other Wikipedia articles about metaphors are not written from an academic POV. That perspective is fitting for an article about an academic theory, but not for an article about an idiom. As such, your proper references for such an articles would be mostly mass-media references, not academic ones - there's no shortage of those. The Feynman example given above would actually be a valid reference in a section like that, for example, because it's a popular and influential work that explains and uses the metaphor. Alsadius (talk) 16:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

What you are proposing would violate Wikipedia:No original research. We can't do our own analysis of say Feynman, giving it as an example of 'cargo cults as a metaphor'. We need secondary sources that analyse Feynman's speech that way - as metaphor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's the relevant bit from the nutshell of that policy: All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.

I don't have a copy of the book handy, but here's a speech he gave on the topic, and the book's version is adapted from that speech: I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are examples of what I would like to call Cargo Cult Science. In the South Seas there is a Cargo Cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they’ve arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he’s the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They’re doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn’t work. No airplanes land. So I call these things Cargo Cult Science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they’re missing something essential, because the planes don’t land.

He's clearly stating it to be a metaphor. If you want me to dig up someone else quoting him and doing that analysis, that can be arranged (there's a reference of this sort in the book's article, for example), but I don't think that's actually what NOR demands here. Judging by the structure of similar pages, simply giving examples of the metaphor in common usage is fine, no meta-textual analysis needed. Again, see the various links to other WP pages which I gave above. Alsadius (talk) 18:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know what Feynman said. And no, he isn't stating that cargo cults are a metaphor. He's using what he thinks he knows about cargo cults as a metaphor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

But that's my whole point! The metaphor stands apart from the reality of the cults, much like how the boiling frog metaphor stands apart from the reality of frogs actually jumping out of the pot. People still use the metaphor, whether it's accurate or not, and that usage is noteworthy in its own right. This is exactly why I'm saying that there's two completely different articles here. One's about actual beliefs among South Pacific islanders, and the other is a figure of speech people use to discuss those who ape the form of something without understanding the content. Alsadius (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Articles need sources. Sources directly discussing the article topic. Not sources we can select our own examples from. This is how Wikipedia does things. Per policy. Per WP:NOR. Per WP:RS. Per WP:NPOV. Find the sources. Sources discussing 'cargo cults as a metaphor'. Or 'cargo cults as a figure of speech'. Not sources using metaphors. Sources analysing them as such. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

So can I expect to see you in Talk:Boiling frog arguing that they need to remove the "as a metaphor" section, and just leave it as an animal behaviour article? Remove the joke that started Spherical cow, and also the pop culture references, and leave it as "This was the name of a Linux distribution from 2013"? I don't see how those articles are distinguishable from this one, according to the rules you're suggesting here. And if a large number of long-established articles aren't following your rules, then I'd suggest you misunderstand the rules.

Can you find me even a single example of an article about a metaphor that follows the rules as you're outlining them here? I just went through a dozen more to double-check myself here, and none of the ones I looked at came close - several discuss the underlying fact pattern in varying levels of detail, but and a couple with single references to works of literary analysis, but none do the meta-textual analysis as the core of the article, or the most common category of references. All of the articles on metaphors have far more pop culture references than analytical ones. Alsadius (talk) 01:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

So far you have failed to provide any analytical sources at all. And please read WP:OTHERCONTENT. Not that the other articles are really comparable anyway, given that boiling frogs, slippery slopes etc are immediately recognised as metaphors, used in common parlance in contexts where nobody can take them literally. This plainly isn't the case with cargo cults, where it is readily apparent that a significant number of people aren't treating the PopCult version as a metaphor at all - they clearly believe it to be historical fact, around which they can then construct metaphors. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

If you're genuinely interested in writing about "cargo cults as metaphor", then the book Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond (freely accessible on JSTOR) is a good place to start, though perhaps somewhat heavy-going for the non-anthropologically inclined. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia:

So, okay, to kind of bring things back around, here is where we are at.

1. There is a popular and widely-used idiom referring to a phenomenon believed to happen in this region.
2. This figure of speech comes from the mid-20th century, and is based on a somewhat simplistic and reductionist understanding of cultural practices.
3. These cultural practices are in fact pretty detailed and complicated and they go far beyond the thing referred to by the idiom.
4. The guys who threw up a viral Twitter post to piss and moan that this article was obtusely stuffed full of academic mumbo-jumbo for the sake of political grandstanding were mostly correct.
5. The guy who threw up a Wikipediocracy thread to piss and moan that those guys were saying a bunch of whiny shit about the wokies for the sake of political grandstanding was mostly correct.

I understand it's annoying when dumbasses are racist online, and to have to listen to people say "Did you know that there's this island where people are so dumb they made headphones out of bamboo to make planes drop supplies there" (based on, evidently based on the sources, a cheap gonzo documentray from Italy in 1970 where everything else in it was obviously made-up??) and that it is fun to tell people "Actually did you know that if you boiled a real frog it would just jump out of the pot?", but I feel like once the "unsubtly bragging about having JSTOR access" Rubicon has been crossed, it's time to get on with it. Is there an actual, serious reason not to just split the article? There is a set of religious practices in Melanesia, and then there is a term used in colloquial English to refer to doing dumb shit by rote due to inadequate understanding of complex systems. The first source from this article, which has 15 citations, even says this outright:

Anthropologists have invented or cultivated a number of important keywords, including ‘culture’, ‘ethnicity’, ‘worldview’, ‘socialization’, ‘ethnography’, and ‘rite of passage’. Among these terms is ‘cargo cult’ which, although more particular in scope, has enjoyed surprising popularity both inside the discipline and beyond. Peter Worsley, who compiled an early overview of cargo cults in The trumpet shall sound (1957), offered what had already become the standard definition. Cargo cults are:

strange religious movements in the South Pacific [that appeared] during the last few decades. In these movements, a prophet announces the imminence of the end of the world in a cataclysm which will destroy everything. Then the ancestors will return, or God, or some other liberating power, will appear, bringing all the goods the people desire, and ushering in a reign of eternal bliss (1957: 11).

In the Melanesian islands of the southwest Pacific, ‘cargo cult’ provided a handy label which could encompass a variety of forms of social unrest that ethnographers elsewhere tagged millenarian, messianic, nativistic, vitalistic, revivalistic, or culture-contact or adjustment movements. After the Second World War, anthropological attention (including Worsley’s) had shifted from functionalist accounts of simpler social systems to issues of social change, and how to describe and explain that change. The label presumed that these Melanesian movements typically focused on the acquisition of ‘cargo’ or kago (supplies, goods) in the Pidgin Englishes of Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, and Vanuatu (then the New Hebrides). Anthropologists offered a variety of explanations for cargo cult outbreaks, within the broader context of global social transformations that the War had caused. Simple greed and cupidity, fundamental Melanesian cultural and religious belief systems, or colonial inequality and oppression variously accounted for cult outbreaks. The term fell out of anthropological favor by the 1970s when Melanesian colonies obtained national independence (Fiji in 1970; Papua New Guinea in 1975; Solomon Islands in 1978; and Vanuatu in 1980). Active social movements continue, however, in colonised West Papua, the western half of New Guinea that Indonesia annexed in 1962. Some have tagged these anti-Indonesian liberation movements as cargoistic (e.g., Giay & Godschalk 1993; Timmer 2000), but caution is warranted insofar as the label undercuts the political gravity and legitimacy of organised liberation efforts. Although most anthropologists have abandoned ‘cargo cult’ as misleading, and even embarrassing (although, see Otto 2009 and Tabani 2013, who defend the label’s merits), the term enjoys a post-ethnographic afterlife and continues to pop up frequently in popular commentary and critique.

Like, the very first source here explicitly says that "most anthropologists have abandoned" the term as misleading -- is this untrue? This one says that there's a "strong tendency in recent studies of Melanesian religious and political movements that want to discard the term 'cargo cult' for reasons of analytical—and ethical—inadequacy". If this is true, it sounds to me like a pretty darn good reason to write about Melanesian religious movements at an article about Melanesian religious movements, rather than shoehorning them into a different article, under a name that apparently is not used by the field, and instead let that one be about the idea of a "cargo cult" at the article about the phrase "cargo cult". I realize this offers fewer opportunities for point-scoring, but I really do think it would result in a better article. In fact, two of them. Yes? jp×g🗯️ 22:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Like I (and Andy) have previously said, the idea of "cargo cult" and "cargo cult as metaphor" are really intimately connected to the point that I don't think they are really separable into two distinct articles, and readers are probably looking for both in the same article. Probably the best source for "cargo cult as metaphor" I've found so far is probably [1] Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to cover "cargo cult as popular metaphor" in the current "cargo cult" article, as the two topics are intimately connected. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, provided it is properly sourced. Which is the issue really. As I've noted, nobody beyond Lindstrom and maybe a few other anthropologists seem to have said much of consequence on the PopCult metaphor as a metaphor. Beyond that, it just gets used - generally by people who seem to take it as fact. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not averse to that solution, if the article can be written well. It seems like the more difficult path of the two (which is why I suggested the split), but if you think they need to be taken as a pair, then the one-article solution might be the better option overall. Alsadius (talk) 01:18, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Article still a hot mess

Currently, the article is still a hot mess of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, with extensive misuse of sourcing. I don't expect that to change until the editor that's deeply invested in the article steps back. Reviewing the sourcing for the sentence: "Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both", it's clear that context has been stripped from the original article which attributes that characterization to "Those with a more critical perspective ...". There is no reason to represent a critical cohort of anthropologists as representative of the field in the lede of the article. Twisting sources like this suggest there is some WP:POV laundering going on. I could go into deeper detail for most of the other changes to the article, but for now it's clear that trying to move the article to a more neutral place isn't worth the effort right now. TheMissingMuse (talk) 16:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Confusing definition

So based on this article, a Cargo Cult is "just like any other cult, but located in Melanesia". I'm having a hard time finding anything in the article that explains why a different terminology is warranted for Melanesian cults specifically, when the definition could apply to any other cults operating anywhere else on the planet, aside from "this term has been used to refer to one very specific but nebulously defined phenomenon connected to Melanesia, so this now just the name for cults that pop up in that area". Am I missing something? 46.97.170.182 (talk) 11:10, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

You're missing the fact that the article is just a mess. It's been taken over by someone with a specific POV. This is evident from the fact that the introduction is laden with academic jargon, and elides the fundamental definition of what a cargo cult is. I don't expect this to change any time soon. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I was just reading through this article by chance a month or two ago and noticed the same thing. I think the problem is pretty clear just in the lede itself. Simply put, I have no doubt it precisely passes WP:V and very carefully says exactly what the highest quality academic sources say. But it's a pretty clear violation of WP:ONEDOWN and WP:DUE (specifically WP:COATRACK). Firstly, WP:ONEDOWN. It simply is not comprehensible. Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements ... the term "cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations" What I honestly get from this is a feeling of vague confusion. Sure, I hear that there was some phenomenon that occurred in Melanesia after Western colonization, but what was it, and what did it have to do with the Western contact? Only once we get to Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy do we actually get a glimmer of why this article is called "cargo cult". But it's only implied and nothing is said explicitly, and we are immediately expertly whisked away from any actual meaning being conveyed since the rest of the sentence is although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods which undermines the entire idea and brings the reader back to having no idea what we're talking about. This leads into the second concern, WP:COATRACK. This isn't the "Summary of Melanesian spiritual movements in the mid 20th century" article. It's the "Cargo cult" article. Hence, this lede reads to me like a WP:COATRACK where we begin with "Cargo cult is a term..." and wander all around a broader topic for a while, barely touch back onto how it has anything to do with Western contact or "cargo" at all, then immediately undermine that by implying it didn't really happen that much, and wander away. The same coatracking issue happens in the body of the article itself. It's one thing to explain what else was going on with Pacific Islander cults at the time as background, it's another to make that the topic of the article with the cargo cults being a subnote of "oh and some of the cults were about cargo and some weren't". Again, this is the cargo cult article so it should be about the cargo cults specifically. So, I feel like a little bit of explanation could go a long way here. For instance, how about a simple straightforward sentence of what exactly is meant by the term "cargo cult"? I understand that the term has fallen out of favor, and that reality is always more complicated than the simplified one sentence sound bite that people colloquially use the phrase "cargo cult" to mean; you hear that usage all the time in the online world (and I am definitely not saying that should be brought up any more than it is). But assuming that I'm reading the article correctly, the crux to me is that this is really a thing that happened. It's not like "with a modern critical look, we don't think there were cults that promised a return of WW2 cargo", quite the opposite. I would sort of understand if the lede ended up having to say something like: "'Cargo cult' is a term for something that we thought happened in Melanesia but it didn't really", but that's not the case. Even with all the modern critical analysis, we aren't actually doubting the literal reality of how World War II cargo planes affected the Melanesian people and how cults sprung up around that. The lede reads as though we're gritting our teeth and trying our absolute hardest to obfuscate and not actually explain what "cargo cult" means, while nominally sticking to the letter of WP:V and MOS:LEDE. Is it really so hard to plainly say what the topic of the article is? So, getting into the specifics. I have no problem with the second paragraph of the lede, I think it adequately explains the more recent usage of the term on a meta level. The first paragraph though, simply does not explain the term. I should be able to read the first paragraph and understand what's going on with "cargo" and the "cult"s in specifically the mid 20th century in specifically Melanesia. That is an extremely easy low bar for an article on "cargo cult" but it currently fails to meet it. Leijurv (talk) 06:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Follow-up. Here's a humorous example of what I'm talking about. Imagine you went on the article "London" and the lede said something like this: "London" is a term used to denote various groupings, localities, and identities among peoples that emerged over the last few thousand years in the British Isles. Although the term "London" has been used by geographers to "label almost any sort of large, river-based settlement with commercial and political aspirations", features common to most London-like areas include the presence of prominent architectural structures, although this was not a universal feature of such areas, and claims made about these structures varied greatly from era to era. Some scholars posit that these areas may be associated with a body of water, potentially a river, while others have suggested that their relationship with rivers is more symbolic than geographical, pointing to the fluidity of urban spaces in general. The notion that London exists within the geopolitical construct known as "England" has gained traction among certain academic circles, though dissenting voices argue for a more fluid interpretation of its spatial and cultural boundaries. Given the multiplicity of conflicting viewpoints and the inherent ambiguity surrounding the concept of "London," it becomes increasingly challenging to assert any definitive statements about its characteristics, location, or even its fundamental existence. Leijurv (talk) 07:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on published reliable sources. The only such sources which have written anything of substance on this topic are those from anthropology. This article summarises what they have to say on the topic. Facile analogies and walls of text don't substitute for sources, and if some ill-informed people on this talk page have difficulty in understanding that what they think they know about the subject is wrong (e.g. this obsession with WW2 aircraft, for a phenomenon dating back to the 19th century, for a start), that isn't our problem. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"The only such sources which have written anything of substance on this topic are those from anthropology" This is clearly untrue. I'm surprised to see such a blatant attempt at POV pushing from you @AndyTheGrump. TheMissingMuse (talk) 14:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

So, beyond anthropology, what WP:RS sources have written anything of substance on the topic of this article? Provide citations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

• https://books.google.com/books?id=jmC8DAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22cargo+cult%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-s9-D77aIAxWiODQIHZkvBZkQ6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=_gA_DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cargo+cult+science&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPzvDb8raIAxWcLTQIHatRALYQ6AF6BAgMEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=RUamiiUdE1MC&pg=PA74&dq=%22cargo+cult%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy8JeW8baIAxXHLTQIHftLAFA4FBDoAXoECAsQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=bRRTSMf5cO4C&pg=PA250&dq=%22cargo+cult%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinpqTd8baIAxVwODQIHeS2FIk4KBDoAXoECBQQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=ckuvPmt9wMIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22cargo+cult+science%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjqs_uR8raIAxXCITQIHS5DI7oQ6AF6BAgIEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=BwX9rPAVYQIC&pg=PA89&dq=%22cargo+cult+science%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj856iF8raIAxWEHjQIHVznBqYQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=EWCsDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22cargo+cult%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX0Z7I87aIAxWLDzQIHXxDAb84FBDoAXoECAkQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=xAaW3bJXNNYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22cargo+cult%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX0Z7I87aIAxWLDzQIHXxDAb84FBDoAXoECBYQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Let me know if you need another half dozen. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I asked for WP:RS sources which have written anything of substance on the topic. Not the results of Google-mining the phrase 'cargo cult'. And please, if you are going to Google-mine, at least take the time to look at the titles of the crap you are proposing to cite. [2] AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Aha, so now you are going to arbitrarily select one source that you determine doesn't meet your personal bar, instead of using policy as a guide. I appreciate that you are trying, in good faith, to do something. What you are trying is not as clear. TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:29, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If you sincerely think that 'Sekret Machines: Gods: An official investigation of the UFO phenomenon' is a valid source on the subject of Melanesian ethnography, I can only suggest that you take another look at WP:RS policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump I then take you view the other sources as legitimate, correct? TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I've read this thread, and can't see any sign of anyone saying your sources are valid. Maybe you replied in the wrong place TheMissingMuse? 12.75.41.46 (talk) 18:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I put them forward as valid sources. Only one source was identified as being less than ideal. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

And no statements about the others, but you made a pointed assumption? Why? Do you really believe that if someone gives you an example of your data being very bad, it's a sign they agree with everything else? If yes, please read WP:CIR before continuing to edit. 12.75.41.46 (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

You've lost me here. Are you suggesting that the sources are not valid. Instead of drifting off into epistemic territory it's better to be clear. Note that I asked a clarifying question, and didn't take it for red that my understanding was necessarily correct. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to put more time into the sources than you did. It was demonstrated that you linked random junk about UFOs. Propose a change to the article, and provide a reliable source to back it up. Don't spam the talk page with random search results. Don't make dishonest statements about other editors agreeing with you because they didn't waste more time on your sources. These are disruptive actions. 12.75.41.46 (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I spent over an hour reading and reviewing sources. Was that comprehensive, no? But it was certainly a good faith effort. Let us know when you are ready to contribute to the project. Cheers! TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The hour would have been better employed reading Wikipedia:Reliable sources, since you clearly don't understand Wikipedia sourcing requirements. And please note that linking Google search results is highly inadvisable, regardless of the source found, since they are subject to rapid link-rot, and very frequently stop working within a day or two. A proper citation, even for a talk page discussion, needs at minimum to include the title and author(s), if it is to be of any long-term benefit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I've read it many times. I understand it fine. Repeatedly claiming I don't is not helpful. Please stick to the content issues and stop trying to make it personal. Still waiting for you weigh in on the clear content issues raised in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cargo_cult#Article_still_a_hot_mess. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The definition of "cargo cult" is vague and confusing, even to anthropologists, the IP is exactly right, which is why modern anthropologists avoid the term. Wikipedia is not going to be able to provide a unambiguous definition of the term where none exists. Leijurv, comparing "cargo cult", a term which anthropologists have long understand to have a vague definition, with "London", a well-defined geographical location is an absurd and frankly stupid apples to oranges comparison. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Well thank goodness you have made the article vague and confusing. Honestly, this has to be one of the biggest butchering jobs I've seen on WP in the last 18 years. TheMissingMuse (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Human behaviour is complex. Observing it as an outsider, from a very different cultural background, makes it appear even more so. If you would prefer an encyclopaedia that ignores describing such complexity, and instead bases article on silly just-so stories told about dark-skinned people by other people who don't know what they are talking about, you are free to go found one. Meanwhile, this article is based on published sources. None of the complaints here about the article have offered any valid sources to back up their alternative proposals - not that much in the way of concrete proposals have been offered. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd be happy to contribute if I didn't think the article was being held hostage. See the section above Talk:Cargo cult#Article still a hot mess for a clear example of awful POV sourcing that is still in the article. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

(outdent) As I said, it's totally possible that I'm ill informed. Perhaps I should simply ask: in your reading of these sources, do you think that the "pop culture understanding" is something that didn't actually happen in real life? I really want to cut through the BS here. When I read this article, or John Frum, I don't get the impression that the pop culture understanding didn't actually happen. For instance, the article says In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of airplanes out of straw and cut new military-style landing strips out of the jungle, hoping to attract more airplanes. This is written in the article, yet you've called me ill informed and "obsessed" with WW2 aircraft. So did this happen or not? When you say that it dates back to the 19th century, yes, that's the problem with coatracking the article. You act as though this is the "Melanesian millenarian movements" article (e.g. here), but it's not, it's the "cargo cult" article. If we write about the general idea of Melanesian cults, yes absolutely you can make fun of me for even bringing up WW2 airplanes bringing cargo, yes absolutely the topic is so much broader and they had cults beforehand and afterward and some of the cults had nothing to do with cargo. But that's only because your coatracking of this article to that topic has been so successful for quite some time now. I agree with JPxG here: write about Melanesian religious movements at an article about Melanesian religious movements, rather than shoehorning them into a different article, under a name that apparently is not used by the field, and instead let that one be about the idea of a "cargo cult" at the article about the phrase "cargo cult" And for the comparison to London, yes I was having a bit of fun, but it seems very defeatist to imply that we can't give really any definition at all. I think the problem here is extremely clear: this article is titled "cargo cult" but it's written about a much broader topic, and this allows for endless fun opportunities to nitpick and hide behind that broadening of scope, such as making fun of me for bringing up airplanes at all while in reality airplanes are core to "cargo cult". And again, if you have WP:RS showing that the pop culture understanding of "WW2 logistics arriving and departing leaving cults in their wake" is not something that actually happened, that would be great to see, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. Andy asks for a concrete proposal, and at great peril of putting my foot in my mouth, I'll try and summarize based on what's currently in this article, John Frum, etc.

Cargo cult is a term that refers to an oversimplified view of the cults and religious movements that sprung up around and reacted to World War II logistics and cargo colonizing and then abandoning Melanesia. Anthropologists generally discourage the use of this term, as it greatly oversimplifies these religious movements, many of which existed long before WW2, and some of which foretold the exact opposite (to abandon Western goods). The term was popularized by anthropologists in the 60s, but popular commentary and critique has retained an oversimplified stereotyped view of "primitive and confused people who use irrational means to pursue rational ends"

So there's my shot at it. I have tried to clearly state exactly what happened, yet still explain why the term is oversimplified and these cults are not anywhere near as simple as they're made out to be. Leijurv (talk) 16:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

No, you aren't stating 'exactly what happened'. You are instead attempting to impose your own personal entirely unsourced personal definition of 'a term' on an article about actual events. As for the John Frum movement, we don't cite Wikipedia for very good reasons. And as a matter of simple historical fact, the movement doesn't even fit your definition, given that it's origins pre-date WW2, and the arrival of 'World War II logistics' in Vanuatu.

As for accusations of 'coatracking', that is utterly ridiculous: the article does nothing but summarise sources written by people with topic-matter expertise. Sources which you seem averse to for no better reason than that they actually describe real events in detail, rather than regurgitating popcult myths. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The London analogy could work if there was a widespread misconception that the city was built by Merlin and a highly skilled team of friendly dragons in hardhats and people kept coming to Wikipedia to insist the article be focused around this popular myth.Dan Murphy (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I pose to you the same question, what exactly is the myth? As I said, And again, if you have WP:RS showing that the pop culture understanding of "WW2 logistics arriving and departing leaving cults in their wake" is not something that actually happened, that would be great to see, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. Leijurv (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Hm, where specifically is that suggested lede wrong about the facts? "the movement doesn't fit your definition" I feel as though this is a nitpick, not a meaningful critique. I said "that sprung up around and reacted to" to cover how some cults had already existed and only adopted beliefs about cargo. So it does fit the definition. Especially given that the next sentence says many of which existed long before WW2. For coatracking being "ridiculous", you didn't actually reply to the concern. The concern is that you've coatracked the article so successfully that an attempt to actually define "cargo cult" in any real way is met with incredulity from you. It suppose it's obvious to you that this article isn't really about cargo cults, but rather about the broader topic of Melanesian cults - that's exactly my accusation, that's exactly what coatracking is. And finally, "popcult myth" - I agree that there are myths and oversimplifications, can you share what precisely is a myth in what I wrote (given the correction that it does cover preexisting movements)? Leijurv (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

How many times does it need to be explained to you that articles aren't constructed around a particular contributors' own idea of what the topic is? This article is about the 'cargo cults' - Melanesian millennialist movements, as extensively described in academic sources. It isn't about some arbitrary subset of them that you think meet your own personal definition of what you think the article ought to be about. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Ironically, this is exactly what you and Hemiauchenia are doing. The article was not strictly about the Melanesian millennialist movements until Hemiauchenia came in and decided that's what it should be about. And despite that more narrow focus, the quality of the article has plummeted. e.g. the content discussed in Talk:Cargo cult#Article still a hot mess. TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:31, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, TheMissingMuse. It's quite ironic. If I were to take the same tone in the other direction, I might say to Andy: How many times does it need to be explained to you that articles aren't constructed around a particular contributors' own idea of what the topic is? This article is about the 'cargo cults', as extensively described in academic sources. It isn't about some arbitrary supersubset of them that you think meet your own personal definition of what you think the article ought to be about. Plainly cargo cults are a real topic, he's acting like there's some source somewhere that says there is actually no such thing, and "cargo cult" is a semantic redirect to "melanesian millennialist movement". I haven't seen such a source. And Lindstrom for instance has no trouble giving actual specific statements in the abstract, that cargo cults were typically about ritual action in pursuit of cargo. Leijurv (talk) 01:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

(outdent) Given that the lede is supposed to summarize the article (MOS:CITELEDE), and given that what I'm suggesting is just a rewrite of the first paragraph of the lede, I hoped not to delve into sources. But it seems as though the replies I'm getting are reliant on appeals to those sources. For example, now you're claiming that per the sources, "cargo cult"s don't relate to cargo or cults, the term actually means "Melanesian millennialist movement"? It really doesn't. This is not supported by the cited source at all actually. Look at the abstract: ... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ... Would you look at that, Lindstrom actually gives a fairly clear definition of what specifically is the prototypical "cargo cult", as differentiated from the general idea of a new religious movement. It's in pursuit of cargo, through ritual action, and the cargo was often Western goods. This is basically everything that you seem to imply is a myth, but it's stated plainly in the abstract of the cited source??

So I'll write essentially two responses here, firstly on how the current lede fails, secondly on how it could be rewritten, and I'll go into Lindstrom.

Problems with current lede

First sentence Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century I think this is a bit vague because it doesn't clearly say that the movements were about cargo. Also slightly nitpicking, but I think the timeframe of late 19th century is misleading, as some may have started then, but the bulk of the contact in question was in the mid 20th century. Other than that, it's all right as a first sentence. It clearly states that the term refers to how Melanesian religious movements reacted to and were affected by Western colonization - that's great, exactly right for an article about cargo cults. It just needs to go one step further and mention what's going on with "cargo".

Second and third sentences Although the term "cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations", features common to most cargo cult groups include the presence of charismatic prophet figures foretelling an imminent cataclysm and/or a coming utopia for followers—a worldview known as millenarianism.[1][2] Claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, with some predicting the return of the dead or an abundance of food.[3] Now we're being extremely misleading. Firstly, that quote. The issue here is that, paraphrasing, the cited source tells us that many people such as journalists have used the term in a broad way. That is not the same as what the lede says. The lede says the term "cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised ... (emphasis added). The problem here is that "used by anthropologists" adds undue weight to this overly broad definition, it makes it seem as though that's "the" definition. The cited source actually says 'Cargo cult' quickly spread through Australian academia and beyond as anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term to label almost any sort of organised .... The interesting part here to me is that Australians "borrowed the term", in that it clearly states that this is an overgeneralized usage of "cargo cult". In short, the cited source says that the term was used sloppily to label many different things... but that same cited source also tells us a clear definition, we just need to look to the abstract about the "modal cargo cult". Why did we take the broadest definition and quote it out of context? Why not use the abstract? Then, in features common to most cargo cult groups we again have the issue of not actually talking about cargo at all. Did most cargo cult groups have charismatic prophet figured foretelling cataclysm or utopia? Sure! I'm not saying that can't be mentioned, I'm saying it's highly misleading if it's the only thing that's mentioned. Yeah, basically any cult will have charismatic prophet figures. And finally, that their claims varied greatly. I'm sure they did, and that would be a reasonable thing to say in the lede of a "Melanesian religious movements" article. But it is not WP:DUE in this lede. This lede is about cargo cults, and when speaking about cargo cults we're not just allowed to, we actually SHOULD explicitly say what the claims were in cargo cults to set them apart from any old cult.

Fourth and fifth sentences Some movements sought to appease "ancestral spirits or other powerful beings" by either reviving ancestral traditions or adopting new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing or imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel.[1] Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy,[1][4] although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods.[3 I think it's fine to say that the rituals were targeted at ancestral spirits or other powerful beings. It's probably too complicated for the lede to get into the exact nature of where they thought the cargo was coming from. But it's again misleading to completely fail to mention the connection to Western cargo. although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods. This is plainly ridiculous at this point. I already talked about it previous points, but just come on. This is nearly exactly a classic example of failing WP:NPOV, in which you hedge with "some people did X, but others didn't". I leave this sentence with basically no new information. Here's the key point: sure, I have no doubt some other Melanesian religious movements at the time had nothing to do with cargo of any kind. Those movements were therefore not cargo cults. In the lede of the article about cargo cults, we are explicitly talking about the ones that were in pursuit of 'cargo' (Lindstrom). So, I'm asking for a rephrasing here. To make my point clear by paraphrasing: This is fine on a Melanesian religious movements article but doesn't belong on cargo cult: Some Melanesian religious movements foretold Western goods, but some didn't. This is so misleading it's essentially an incorrect definition: Some cargo cults foretold Western goods, but some didn't This matches the cited source: Cargo cults foretold Western goods. Do we even need to mention that not everybody was in such a cult? Perhaps we could also say, later in the article, Obviously, not everybody in Melanesia was in a cargo cult. but this is so obvious I don't think it needs to go in the lede at all.

Sixth sentence Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society,[2] as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both.[1] The first cited source says Those with a more critical perspective rooted cargo cults in post-war political and economic relationships. Rather than pointing at Melanesians and Melanesian culture for cargo culting, cults erupted because of insufferable social conditions. and the second says Burridge (1993) observes that there is general agreement among scholars that cargo (and similar) movements are rooted in disharmonies in social and cultural conditions that are “generated when a traditional economy is faced with mod- ernization and the urgencies of money, commerce and industry” So, I can't quite call this sentence "wrong", because obviously any religious movement will be rooted in pre-existing aspects of the society. And clearly it was a reaction to colonization severely disrupting the village life and economy. I'm hesitant but I think this sentence is mostly fine, although I'm having a hard time grasping exactly where in which sources it's drawing from, so it needs to be supported in the body of the article in order to stay.

How it could be rewritten

Let's use only the first source, which is already cited in the lede, Lindstrom 2018. Firstly, what is "cargo cult" on a meta level? Where should the lede fall on the use-mention distinction? Are we writing about an anthopological term, or are we writing about the events that the term refers to? I think it'll have to be a bit of both, similar to how the lede is now. And I think it'll be important to say this clearly later in the lede. Secondly, the real level. While this Lindstrom source is academic and wordy, I think it's better than Wikipedia's lede. This is already a problem, since per MOS:INTRO Wikipedia should be more accessible and comprehensible than its sources, not less. So, the source says: ... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ... Here's why this text, in and of itself, is already better. First, it clearly says what happened. It was a ritual action in pursuit of cargo. Secondly, it says that the cargo was generally Western goods (but not always). This is interesting for me to read, because upon looking at this article's lede I imagined "oh gosh, I bet the cited source will be even more detailed-yet-vague, technical, nonspecific, etc". But upon reading the actual cited source, it pretty clearly states what the prototypical cargo cult is. Why can't we say this? Why didn't the lede already say this? How strange.

My updated suggestion for the first sentence: 'Cargo cult' is a term that refers to an oversimplified view of Melanesian religious movements taking up new rituals in pursuit of cargo as a reaction to Western colonization then abandonment of Melanesia. (Lindstrom 2018) Leijurv (talk) 21:32, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

This isn't an article about a term. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I somewhat agree. The article should be about cargo cults (the phoenomenom that happened in real life), and perhaps it could also mention the history of the term as a term (misuse, overly broad use, etc). The problem I see is that the lede isn't written about cargo cults, it's written about something a bit broader, about Melanesian religious movements in general. But that's really not what the term means, and it's not my random opinion, it's based on the sources. For instance, in the second source cited in the lede, Otto (2009), we have As far as Melanesia is concerned, the cargo cult concept highlights a range of millenarian ideas, cults, and movements that originated in the wake of Western colonization and, more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the cargo. again supporting the idea that cargo cults were about cargo (generally Western goods). And we also have In spite of the enormous variety of phenomena that have been branded as cargo cult in Melanesia, from the early beginnings to the present, it is pos- sible to identify a number of elements that are present in most of them in various combinations (Burridge 1993; T. Schwartz 1976; Steinbauer 1979). In particular, I would mention the following: the development of a certain myth-dream (Burridge 1960), a synthesis of various indigenous and foreign narrative elements and religious concepts; the expectation of the help and/or return of the ancestors; the emergence of leaders with special experiences and/or knowledge; and a strong belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods. These characteristics give a fair picture of the prominent aspects of most cargo cults, but they do not describe the moral and social crises that were the fertile ground on which the cults developed and to which they were a possible answer. This is again, fairly clear. There was ritual, there was a leader, it synthesized indigenous and foreign elements... and most of all a "strong" belief that it would result in the appearance of goods.

Here's the way I see it. I was self-doubting earlier, wondering if the whole cargo cult story was blown out of proportion and never really happened, and so I asked if there was a source saying that. But now that I look at these sources, is there really any disagreement that this happened? I think the lede is engaged in some quite strange rhetorical sleight of hand. This is the cargo cult article, so it pulls in scholarly sources about cargo cults. But instead of taking the overall summary / abstract at face value, the lede pulls out some quotes deeply out of context (e.g. how Australian journalists use the term, versus what the term actually refers to in real life). And now, you're arguing that based on those quotes, the cargo cult article's subject is actually so broad and vague that the lede doesn't need to really mention cargo at all? Let's bring it back to concrete reality please, for instance the abstract of Lindstrom or these quotes from Otto. Cargo cults were about ritual action in pursuit of cargo. Leijurv (talk) 21:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You are still trying to concoct an article out of your own personal preferred subset of events described in the literature. We don't do that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Untrue, please reread. I am clearly grounding it in the passages from Otto (2009) and most importantly the abstract of Lindstrom (2018): ... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ... Leijurv (talk) 22:04, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

(outdent) Here's a proposal for the first paragraph that's real, concrete, good-faith, and sourced. The changes are entirely cited to Lindstrom (2018), like how most of the lede already is. The main change is to make the lede more comprehensible by reducing the undue vagueness and unneeded detail, and adding more clarity on what most cargo cults were. The lede already says features common to most cargo cult groups include, meaning we're already fine with giving the broad strokes of the idea—let's just list a few more things under that header. And let's remove the obfuscation, such as the fence-sitting about whether cargo cults foretold cargo or not, fence-sitting about whether cargo cults arose because of colonization or not, and the quote that implies "cargo cult" can mean basically anything (we'll leave that detail for the body of the article).

−

Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century. Although the term "cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations", features common to most cargo cult groups include the presence of charismatic prophet figures foretelling an imminent cataclysm and/or a coming utopia for followers—a worldview known as millenarianism. Claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, with some predicting the return of the dead or an abundance of food. Some movements sought to appease "ancestral spirits or other powerful beings" by either reviving ancestral traditions or adopting new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing or imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel. Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy, although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both.

+

Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region. Features common to most cargo cult groups include charismatic prophet figures foretelling an imminent cataclysm and/or a coming utopia for followers, and the revival of ancestral traditions or adoption of new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing or imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel, in pursuit of a coming bounty of Western goods or money. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life.

I believe this is a compromise because it preserves lots of the existing phrasing and tone, and uses the existing source. Leijurv (talk) 00:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

No, cherry-picking sources to suit your own particular narrative is in no way a 'compromise'. In no way does 'imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel' typify the cults. And as has been explained umpteen times, neither does 'pursuit of a coming bounty of Western goods or money'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This is getting silly. Cherry-picking sources I used the existing sources from the lede. Do you not agree that Lindstrom (2018) is a good source? It's already cited six times in the current lede and another ten times in the body. Also, imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel is already in the lede, I didn't change that phrase, which you can clearly see in the diff. And the lede currently says some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money. Finally, the ritual being in "pursuit" of cargo is directly taken from the abstract of Lindstrom: ... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ... Emphasis mine. And it's also supported by these passages from Otto (2009). Leijurv (talk) 02:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump there is extensive cherry picking of sources in the article as it currently exists. If you have a problem with that, then you should address the issue raised in the section above: Talk:Cargo cult#Article still a hot mess. I understand you (Andy) are trying to make the article better. We all are. TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that section raises one of the issues that I also am bothered with - the cited source says "Those with a critical perspective", but the lede deletes that part and quotes the rest in a generic fence-sitting "some people say X, but others say Y", which is a classic WP:NPOV violation. In general, this lede is riddled with WP:OR and WP:UNDUE, as I've explained above in exhaustive phrase-by-phrase detail. My version removes the useless undue fence-sitting and is well supported by the abstract of Lindstrom's article, which is a high-quality well-sourced summary written by a lifelong subject matter expert. When you actually read Lindstrom's abstract it doesn't support the generic wishy washy "cargo cults can be anything" non-definitions currently in the lede. Leijurv (talk) 03:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm coming into this discussion almost completely blind, but something I noticed immediately is that your version completely cuts out the hedging the original does. No more "varies wildly", to name one example. I think that creates a probably incorrect impression that these movements were at least relatively uniform in nature. --Licks-rocks (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The removal of hedging is intentional, yes. I understand the concern of uniformity too, and I'm totally willing to compromise on phrasing, e.g. should it be described as "most" cargo cults, the "typical" cargo cult, or something else entirely. The part that I feel needs to change is hedging-to-the-point-of-meaninglessness. If you look at the abstract of the cited source you'll see that it describes attributes of the "typical" cargo cult, here's one sentence: Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Hence, I feel as though our lede could say something similar. I feel as though "cargo cults typically foretold cargo as a result of ritual action" is supported by sources, while "cargo cults sometimes foretold cargo and sometimes didn't" is misleading (WP:UNDUE). Leijurv (talk) 17:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Licks-rocks: Would this be better in your view?

−

Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century. Although the term "cargo cult" has been used by anthropologists to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations", features common to most cargo cult groups include the presence of charismatic prophet figures foretelling an imminent cataclysm and/or a coming utopia for followers—a worldview known as millenarianism. Claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, with some predicting the return of the dead or an abundance of food. Some movements sought to appease "ancestral spirits or other powerful beings" by either reviving ancestral traditions or adopting new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing or imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel. Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy, although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both.

+

Cargo cult is a term used to denote various spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region. Features common to most cargo cult groups include charismatic prophet figures foretelling an imminent cataclysm and/or a coming utopia for followers. Claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, but most foretold that the revival of ancestral traditions or adoption of new rituals, such as ecstatic dancing or imitating the actions of colonists and military personnel, would lead followers to a coming bounty of Western goods or money. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life.

(I've added back that claims "varied greatly from movement to movement") Leijurv (talk) 17:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

For reference, I'm noting that Hemiauchenia has brought this up at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Cargo_cult, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#Dispute_at_Cargo_cult, and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion/New_religious_movements_work_group#Dispute_at_Cargo_cult Leijurv (talk) 18:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Andy, I think you've been pretty disrespectful and unkind to me but I'm going to continue try to work with you anyway. I think Facile analogies and walls of text don't substitute for sources, and if some ill-informed people on this talk page have difficulty in understanding that what they think they know about the subject is wrong (e.g. this obsession with WW2 aircraft, for a phenomenon dating back to the 19th century, for a start), that isn't our problem. was unkind. You said None of the complaints here about the article have offered any valid sources to back up their alternative proposals and the article does nothing but summarise sources written by people with topic-matter expertise. Sources which you seem averse to for no better reason than that they actually describe real events in detail, rather than regurgitating popcult myths and How many times does it need to be explained to you that articles aren't constructed around a particular contributors' own idea of what the topic is? This article is about the 'cargo cults' - Melanesian millennialist movements, as extensively described in academic sources. It isn't about some arbitrary subset of them that you think meet your own personal definition of what you think the article ought to be about.. I think that it's disrespectful to essentially ignore me when I genuinely respond to your challenge to provide concrete proposal that cites subject matter experts. I explained in detail how I think we could collaboratively improve this article, and you still are responding with dismissiveness, with You are still trying to concoct an article out of your own personal preferred subset of events described in the literature. We don't do that. even though I fully explained how what I said was based on the main source of this article (Lindstrom). And now on top of all that, you're calling Lindstrom a "cherry-picked source" (I didn't pick it!), and you're criticizing the phrases that are already in the lede, which you can clearly see since I used the textdiff template to show you, and which are directly and straightforwardly supported by Lindstrom's abstract? I really don't understand what's going on here, genuinely. I am going to continue trying to propose ways to improve this lede to address the "insufficient context" maintenance template and improve the encyclopedia, but I really think you're making it difficult and uncollegial. Leijurv (talk) 04:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

(outdent) Moving back from WP:FTN#Cargo_cult (permalink). My summary:

• Hemiauchenia consults with Austroneiser. Their reply reminds me of WP:DTTC. Hemiauchenia defends the current lede using quotes from Lindstrom (2018), I reply clarifying that I agree the source is reliable but I think the quotes are missing important context, also referencing Otto (2009), now awaiting further reply.
• Hemiauchenia presents more sources to support early accounts being highly biased (no disagreement from me on that front), agrees with Andy that "Cargo cult" if taken at its broadest can mean any new religious movement in Melanesia, but also agrees that ritual action for material goods actually happened. I reply, agreeing that that is the broadest definition, but disagreeing that we should be so broad, and I respond to the particular doubts about source bias, such as by mentioning that Lindstrom wrote both sources, and that he was more concerned in his 1993 book with Western reactions rather than Melanesian realities.
• Fiveby cites a new source, Vivanco (2018) in Oxford University Press's "A Dictionary of Cultural Anthropology", which I believe we'll agree is reliable. This source says native prophets promised the imminent arrival of ‘cargo’, or manufactured goods and money. Their edit summary was what popular misconception? which I agree with - a big issue in this conversation is throwing around phrases like "myth" or "just-plain-wrong" or "popular misconception" or similar, while not clearly and explicitly stating what part you're claiming is myth versus fact. If you look at my earliest posts, I openly struggled, and still struggle now, to understand what exact parts of the story we're saying are debunked, versus misleading, versus myth, ...?
• Lots of mostly unproductive back-and-forth between Andy and I, not saying much beyond what you can already see on this page ^. The loop was basically, paraphrasing:

  1. Andy: This is a complicated topic and you're perpetuating misleading, ill-informed, and offensive myths, my position is supported by the literature on the topic, which you need to read more of.

  2. Me: I have quotes from various sources that we agree are reliable to support my position, you have not quoted anything.

  3. Return to step 1 and repeat.

  Andy did bring up two sources, "A Melanesian Millennium" (Burridge 1960) and "The Trumpet Shall Sound" (Worsley 1957), which I am perusing. He didn't quote anything, but he did identify a nice map in Worsley to show me that only about half of the cargo cults had the "myth of the cargo", I located the map and confirmed this is accurate (it was just above half), however, this did end up supporting my position that this was "more often than not" (quoted from Otto (2009)).

• Fiveby returns and comments on Lindstrom and other sources, suggests to move discussion back to this page, and suggests to expand the article body. Hemiauchenia and Andy generally agree.

That's my summary. I would agree that my dynamic with Andy simply isn't working. Fiveby (talk · contribs) suggests to instead update the article body accordingly. I do believe the article body contains sufficient detail, however, it fails to summarize the movement, and it fails to explain the contradiction inherent in the term. Particularly, the issue we face in discussion, about to what extent this really happened and what exactly is a myth about it, is not really addressed well in the article. Sure, the article presents Lindstrom's perspective, with attribution to Lindstrom, but then in the "Causes, beliefs, and practices" and "Examples" sections, the article dives right in and makes clear unafraid statements that characterize the common attributes of cargo cults, with examples (which is great!). But now we've presented the reader with two perspectives, with no connective tissue. Is this a made-up Western term that doesn't really correspond to reality? The article makes me suspect so... but then I read the next few sections and it's back to sounding like something that (at least in some cases (I'd say most cases)) happened. What do we think should be done about this? Leijurv (talk) 18:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

From reading through the source that Andy recommended me, I found one of the quotes used in the article. The quote was cut off before it mentioned "cargo", so I've extended it in this edit. Leijurv (talk) 18:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Up next I'll look at the last paragraph of the "Origin of the term and definitions" section. I think this is a good place to start since it's plainly just summarizing what Lindstrom (2018) has to say, so there's no challenge in sourcing, just summarization. Overall I think this paragraph's quotes provide an interesting and relevant perspective (and my edit doesn't remove any), but some of the connector words and framing of the quotes goes a bit beyond Lindstrom's actual claims. Pinging @Hemiauchenia: as I'm taking (slight) issue with what you wrote. First: Anthropologist Lamont Lindstrom has written that the term "bundles together diverse and particular uprisings, disturbances, and movements that may have little in common" My issue is that when reading the sentence in context, it's in a paragraph that compares usage of the term on a meta level. The previous sentence was Others have deconstructed cargo cult as a misleading analytical artifice, an observer’s false category. and the rest of the paragraph considers the other side. For example, imagine I wrote Lindstrom has written that the term is "ethnographically useful", quoting from later in the same paragraph, this would be poor WP:NPOV in the other direction, because I pulled that out from another sentence and removed the part where Lindstrom again has hedged by saying that this is only the opinion of some anthropologists. Then, the next quote is label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations. The full quote in the source is ‘Cargo cult’ quickly spread through Australian academia and beyond as anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term to label ... aspirations. I brought up my concern with this quote here, but to reiterate, if some writers "borrowed the term", that doesn't mean that their usage should be cited or even implied as definition. To again give an example in the other direction, imagine I had a source that said something like 'Cargo cult' quickly spread through pop culture, as scientists borrowed the term to mean following the form of someone else's scientific advances without understanding the substance, and then imagine I cut off the first part of that sentence and just wrote in the article The term 'cargo cult' has been used by scientists to label "following the form of someone else's scientific advances without understanding the substance", which obviously be highly misleading. As you can see, if we delete the part of the source that qualifies this definition as a "borrowing" ("misuse"?) of the term, we can end up saying misleading things about what the term actually means in general. For the next quote, encompass a variety of ... movements, it's again a fine quote, but slightly misleadingly framed. The source says In the Melanesian islands of the southwest Pacific, ‘cargo cult’ provided a handy label which could encompass a variety of ... movements. Again the problem is that Lindstrom is describing that the term was used this way by some anthropologists, but our article as-written implies that Lindstrom is claiming that that is what actually happened, because the hedging around the quote ("handy label which could") is not included. Then, the second sentence, Lindstrom writes that many anthropologists suggest that "cargo" does not necessarily signifiy literal material goods, but can also reflect desires for "moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy" Again, this is fine content, but the framing is slightly misleading. The source says Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. This paraphrasing has lost the core claim that the cargo was often physical goods, instead it simply says that it wasn't necessarily physical goods, leaving it unsaid how often that was true in Lindstrom's perspective.

Here's my edit:

−

Anthropologist Lamont Lindstrom has written that the term "bundles together diverse and particular uprisings, disturbances, and movements that may have little in common", with the term used to "label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations" which "encompass a variety of forms of social unrest that ethnographers elsewhere tagged millenarian, messianic, nativistic, vitalistic, revivalistic, or culture-contact or adjustment movements". Lindstrom writes that many anthropologists suggest that "cargo" does not necessarily signifiy literal material goods, but can also reflect desires for "moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy".

+

Anthropologist Lamont Lindstrom has written that some anthropologists consider the term to be a "false category" because it "bundles together diverse and particular uprisings, disturbances, and movements that may have little in common". Lindstrom also writes that "anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term to label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations", and that their usage of the term "could encompass a variety of forms of social unrest that ethnographers elsewhere tagged millenarian, messianic, nativistic, vitalistic, revivalistic, or culture-contact or adjustment movements". Lindstrom writes that many anthropologists suggest that while "cargo" often signified literal material goods, it could also reflect desires for "moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy".

As you can see, I've pulled in additional context and framing, but kept the quotes. I believe that in the broader scheme of the article, it's very necessary to convey their perspective, that "cargo cult" has been used overbroadly, which is why I don't think the paragraph should be removed, just reframed. Leijurv (talk) 21:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• I'm having issues identifying a source for this sentence: More recent work has debated the suitability of the term cargo cult arguing that it does not refer to an identifiable empirical reality, and that the emphasis on "cargo" says more about Western ideological bias than it does about the movements concerned. I would ping the original author but it looks like they haven't edited in a decade. The citation is to Otto (2009), but I'm unable to find support for the sentence. Within Otto, I think this is the section being paraphrased, based on it being the only usage of phrases identifiable empirical reality and Western ideological bias, on page 86: Perhaps the most central debate concerns the suit- ability of the term itself, which has been critically assessed from a number of different perspectives. These stances can be summarized by the following questions: Does the term ‘cargo cult’ refer to an identifiable empirical reality? To what extent does it contain a Western ideological bias? Does the use of the term incur ethical and political problems? Do we need the term at all? but that's a vastly different tone and a deeply slanted retelling. Otto phrases these as questions. The next paragraph goes into whether it's an empirical reality with Starting with the first and perhaps most challenging question and continues The existence of cargo cults before the invention of the term may be rightly doubted, but they are now an established part of the academic and indigenous discourse and therefore a social reality. ¶ While the existence of the term ‘cargo cult’ and its continuous use is an undeniable fact, some have doubted its value as an analytical and comparative concept. and continues to defend the term (pages 87-88). Later on page 88, Otto brings up Lindstrom's analysis of "cargoism" (the his work deals only with texts and not with Melanesian realities that I mentioned earlier), but continues to defend the term even though I accept the assumption of a Western predilection to cargoist discourse, I argue that we need to include an analysis of historical and ethnographic realities, which makes it necessary to have a term for doing this—‘cargo cult’, for example. So, Otto argues against the critical view on these questions, leaving us with no support to the sentence in the article (which implies that this critical perspective is seen across "more recent work", while actually it appears to me to be a hypothetical question that Otto brings up in order to soundly reject). Unless there's something I'm missing here, I am highly skeptical of this sentence and its text-source integrity, and as such I would totally rewrite it. Leijurv (talk) 22:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  I've let this sit for a full week, and I think the conclusion is pretty clear: this sentence is a slanted misread of the source. See this previous post ^^ for my initial take. In this section of the source, Otto is bringing up potential objections to his case, then explaining why he disagrees. For example, Otto writes To what extent does it contain a Western ideological bias? whereas our article says More recent work has ... [argued] ... that the emphasis on "cargo" says more about Western ideological bias than it does about the movements concerned. These are absolutely miles apart from each other, and we're well into WP:OR. I'm also skeptical of the entire framing - Otto is bringing up the critical side of the literature and arguing against it. Otto writes: The most forceful attack on the term was launched by Nancy McDowell ... So, he's clearly bringing up specifically the most critical views on the term (most forceful attack), rather than a summary of the literature. Therefore, to be frank, this is essentially as slanted as you could possibly imagine for a place to quote from. So it's absurd to write in our article that More recent work has debated/[argued] ... when Otto is explicitly, in his own admission, bringing up the most extreme examples of critical opposition to the term. We shouldn't summarize that under the generic label of "More recent work", because that creates to the reader an implication of broad applicability that is very much not there in the cited source.

  Now, all that being said, I am not sure it would be neutral to remove this paragraph entirely. Per WP:DUE, we should mention minority viewpoints, properly attributed. The rest of the paragraph about McDowell is a bit mushy / nonsensical (as evidenced by the "clarification needed" maintenance template), so I'll rewrite that. The next paragraph about Lindstrom and Kaplan is also pulling from the same pages of the same source, so I'll combine this all into one paragraph summarizing Otto pages 86 through 89. Leijurv (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  I've made that edit here. Leijurv (talk) 23:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• I noticed a WP:COPYVIO sentence: In recent decades, anthropology has distanced itself from the term "cargo cult", which is now seen as having been reductively applied to many different complicated and disparate social and religious movements that arose from the stress and trauma of colonialism, and sought to attain much more varied and amorphous goals—things like self-determination—than material cargo. I initially removed it, noting as such, but I saw the same source was paraphrased into another article, so I added it back with the copyright violation replaced with a paraphrase. Leijurv (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• I believe the sentence about how political movements "must take care to deny explicitly" being a cargo cult is a bit of synthesis, especially how it was written with the "However", which I've removed in this edit. There are some implications I could see. 1. It could imply there are more modern cargo cult movements than listed on the previous bullet list, because they have to deny it. and/or 2. It could imply that the previous bullet list contains some movements that deny being cargo cults, but they really are, it's just that they have to deny it. The problem is that all of that is WP:SYNTH. The cited source doesn't say any of that, and it certainly can't support either of those implications, because it doesn't mention any of those bulleted movements. Therefore I've added the synthesis maintenance template, and unless I or someone else can find some specific examples I think it's improper juxtaposition. The cited source does give one example, saying that there's a movement that allegedly still awaits the coming of Lyndon B Johnson but denies it, and names themselves Tutukuval Isukal Association. I am just saying it's WP:SYNTH to apply this comment to arbitrary other examples that Lindstrom didn't talk about. Leijurv (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• For these claims: These leaders claimed that the goods were intended for the local indigenous people, but the foreigners had unfairly gained control of these objects through malice or mistake.[10] Thus, a characteristic feature of cargo cults was the belief that spiritual agents would, at some future time, give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members.[10] I had some trouble piecing together the exact support from the source, it strikes me as having strayed slightly into WP:SYNTH, but I think it's plainly true and supported by other sources too, so I'm not worried. Also, on page 134 of that source, I found this to be relevant to the article and I think it could be a good high-level explanation for how cargo beliefs changed over time (and reacted to eras of Western colonization): Waiting for ships or planes to bring dead ancestors and cargo began a long time ago. In the earliest cults the coastal people watched for a big canoe. Later, they watched for sails. In 1919, cult leaders searched the horizon for traces of smoke from steamships. After World War II, ancestors were expected in LST's, troop carriers, and Liberator bombers. Now they're coming in "flying houses" that rise higher than airplanes. then The cargo itself has also undergone modernization. In the earliest days, matches, steel tools, and bolts of calico accounted for most of the phantom cargo. Later, it was sacks of rice, shoes, cannet meat and sardines, rifles, knives, ammunition, and tobacco. Recently, phantom fleets have been seen carrying automobiles, radius, and motorcycles. Some Wset Irian cargo prophets are predicting steamships that will disgorge whole factories and steel mills. Then, I believe the best support for the article's current text is next, on page 135: A precise inventory of cargo would be misleading. The natives are waiting for a total upgrading of their lives. The phantom ships and planes will bring the beginning of a whole new epoch. The dead and living will be reunited, the white man thrown out or subordinated, drudgery abolished; there will be no shortages of anything. The arrival of the cargo, in other words, will mark the beginning of heaven on earth. This vision differs from Western descriptions of the millennium only beacuse of the bizarre prominence of industrial products. Jet planes and ancestors; motorcycles and miracles; radios and ghosts. Our own traditions prepare us for salvation, resurrection, immortality—but with airplanes, cars, and radios? No phantom ships for us. We know where such things come from. Or do we? ¶ Missionaries and government administrators tell the natives that hard work and machines make the cornucopias of industrialism release their rivers of wealth. But the prophets of cargo hold to other theories. They insist that the material wealth of the industrial age is really created in some distant place not by human but by supernatural means. Missionaries, traders, and government officials know how to get consignments of this wealth sent to them by plane or ship—they possess the "secret of cargo." Native cargo prophets rise or fall on their ability to penetrate this secret and to deliver cargo into the hands of their followers. The remaining problem I see is that I don't know where the through malice or mistake phrase came from, WP:OR? (note: I typed these quotes manually, beware of typos) Leijurv (talk) 04:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I've paraphrased these quotes into the article here. Leijurv (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

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• I'd like to make the first paragraph of the lede a bit more specific. I am hopeful for the following reasons. 1. Hemiauchenia wrote substantially all of it in June. 2. In this diff, Hemiauchenia praises the Lindstrom (2018) source, and praises Worsley (1957)'s definition too; I also like both of these sources. And: There are genuine commonalities with regard to some of the "cargo cult" movements, and perhaps the current article goes to far in the "cargo cult is a meaningless term" direction. Therefore, Hemiauchenia, I think we can find common ground.

To start, I will "test the waters" by a slight reduction in "meaningless term"-ness, in a way that I believe is on a totally solid concrete foundation in the existing cited sources.

First, the sentence Some movements sought to appease "ancestral spirits or other powerful beings" by either reviving ancestral traditions or adopting new rituals. The sources are completely clear and adamant that this happened. Lindstrom says the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide (which is clearly what you were paraphrasing). Worsley says Then the ancestors will return, or God, or some other liberating power, will appear, bringing all the goods the people desire, and ushering in a reign of eternal bliss. Lawrence (1964) says A cargo belief (myth) described how European goods were invented by a cargo deity and indicated how men could get them from him via their ancestors by following a cargo prophet or leader. Therefore, I propose to change Some movements sought to appease ancestral ... to The movements usually sought to appease ancestral ...

Second, the sentence Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy, although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods. See the same quotes from Lindstrom, Worsley, and Lawrence as the previous point ^. Also, Otto (2009) says the cargo cult concept highlights a range of millenarian ideas, cults, and movements that originated in the wake of Western colonization and, more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the cargo. and In spite of the enormous variety of phenomena that have been branded as cargo cult in Melanesia, from the early beginnings to the present, it is pos- sible to identify a number of elements that are present in most of them in various combinations. In particular, I would mention the following: the development of a certain myth-dream, a synthesis of various indigenous and foreign narrative elements and religious concepts; the expectation of the help and/or return of the ancestors; the emergence of leaders with special experiences and/or knowledge; and a strong belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods. These characteristics give a fair picture of the prominent aspects of most cargo cults ... Therefore, I propose to change Some groups foretold the coming of a bounty ... to Most groups foretold the coming of a bounty ...

So, to start, I'm just making two changes of basically one word each, keeping all the existing phrases and sticking to existing sourcing, but having it actually say something about the movements. I believe this is well-supported by the sources, and by the body of the article. What do we think? Leijurv (talk) 02:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Other sources that are already in the article. Schwartz (1974) says the following on page 160: Although no two cargo cults were exactly alike, a number of basic beliefs recurred in most. The ancestors would return. The dead would be reunited with the living on a given day, suddenly and totally. The ancestors, when they returned, would bring with them a 'cargo' consisting of the goods and wealth of the Europeans as well as the bounty of land and sea. In almost every instance, one or more prophets appeared who had received revelations from God, christ, or the dead themselves. Prophets were able to describe the magico-ritual means to be employed to ensure the coming of the cargo. Schwartz (2021) says the following on page 7: The villagers were not, however, trying to cure illness. They were trying to open a way for the dead to return, bringing with them virtually unlimited quantities of Western manufactured goods, from food and clothing to construction materials and machinery. [...] Anthropologists used to routinely call this kind of thing a cargo cult. Some now object to this term... Schwartz then goes on in much more depth on pages 16 and 17: The name cargo cult stuck, but many anthropologists have promoted interpretations of the phenomenon that de-emphasise the overt obsession with material goods. ... We can speak with full confidence only of the cargo cult episodes within the Paliau Movement, but the facts of the Paliau Movement case suggest that discounting too vigorously participants’ interest in material cargo—from canned goods to automobiles—seriously distorts participants’ own understanding of their aims. ... There is a case for interpreting the more specific object of their yearnings—material goods—as a symbol. But our data indicate that material goods in themselves were critical. In a phrase anthropologist Paula Levin suggests (personal communication, July 2017), material cargo was sufficient for some cult participants and necessary for all. ... But we still insist that, whatever else they may have sought, cargo was fundamental to the visions of a perfect world that moved participants in the cults we will describe. Many who joined them hoped they would bring not only cargo but also reunification with their ancestors. Otto/Jebens (2004) says In classic Melanesian cargo cults, collective rituals were performed to accelerate the arrival of the desired goods, and “false” rituals were often made responsible when the ancestors and their cargo-laden ships did not come. ... Bumbita cargo beliefs arise out of one central tenet: the conviction that the ancestors, or spirits of the dead, will bring the cargo and bestow it upon the living. ... Coinciding with the beginning of the Paliau movement were a number of cargo cults in a restricted sense: strongly emotional episodes in villages in which people destroyed their own property and waited for their ancestors to come with Western goods. Harris (1974) says Waiting for ships or planes to bring dead ancestors and cargo began a long time ago. ... and the rest of the quote is above (see here). These are all existing article sources. I think the overall shape of typical cargo cults is quite clear and reasonably consistent across the sources that are already cited, which is why I think my edits should be uncontroversial. Cargo movements usually foretold that ritual could bring cargo from their ancestors. Leijurv (talk) 03:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

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• In the spirit of the above discussion about "cargo cult" the term versus cargo cult the movement, I think that the first part of our second sentence strays too far into talking about the term. I've discussed this particular quote several times, see 1 2 3, the summary is that the full quote says that Australian anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term. We are writing about the topic, not about how the term was borrowed then used overly broadly by Australian journalists. To give an example that we'll all clearly agree on, imagine if a source said "Feynmann borrowed the term to mean X Y Z". It would be ridiculous, we would agree, to put in the second sentence of the lede Although the term "cargo cult" has been used by scientists to mean "X Y Z", ... because that's WP:UNDUE in an article about the topic, and especially in the second sentence of the lede, where we're only just beginning to introduce the topic to the reader. It could be WP:DUE in an article about the term like Cargo cult (idiom), but that's not the article we're writing. I think this improves the lede by focusing it in on the features and characteristics of the topic, by reducing the hedging in the direction of "meaningless term". Now, to address concerns that the diversity of the movements is no longer conveyed. I'm also proposing changing the first "various" to "diverse", which is a similar word, but it better conveys that idea. The lede still says claims made by these prophets varied greatly a few sentences later. And, most importantly, this quote remains in the body of the article, properly contextualized and attributed (edit here, explained here). Leijurv (talk) 17:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

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• There's just one last instance of some remaining in the first paragraph of the lede. I believe this one should be the least controversial. Claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, with some predicting the return of the dead or an abundance of food. The return of ancestors bringing goods such as food is universal to all sources I've read. It's in all three of our quoted definitions, Bird (1945) ... ‘cargo’ had been sent by the ancestor of the native ..., Worsley (1957) ... ancestors will return, or God, or some other liberating power, will appear, bringing all the goods the people desire ..., Lawrence (1964) ... men could get [goods] from him via their ancestors by following a cargo prophet or leader. Cargo ritual was any religious activity designed to produce goods in this way .... Lindstrom (2018) states ... in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions would, for believers, bring them cargo. Otto (2009) lists four characteristic elements of cargo cults, two of them are the expectation of the help and/or return of the ancestors and strong belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods. I have more sources listed in these posts too. Therefore, I propose to change the sentence to: While the specific claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement, most of them predicted the return of dead ancestors bringing an abundance of food and goods. So I still think it's okay to keep in the lede that the claims varied wildly overall, but we also need to say what they typically had in common. So, this is just another case of changing "some" to "most", supported by the sources (I added page numbers and an additional citation to the sentence too). And I tweaked the next sentence to clarify that "these" ancestral spirits are who the movements are appealing to.

Overall, I think this brings the lede to a place where we should consider removing the "insufficient context" maintenance template. When I compare to the revision that added the tag, I believe the current version is significantly more clear and less vague. Leijurv (talk) 22:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• @AndyTheGrump: what are your thoughts about Leijurv's recent changes to the lead? I'm definitely ambivalent about them. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not keen on it either. I've not currently got access to the Otto article, but from what I remember of Worsley, he was keen to emphasise differences amongst the prophecies etc. As are most studies that discuss multiple 'cults'. I really don't see the necessity to make assertions about what 'most of them predicted' in such an emphatic manner - and what does 'most' mean, anyway? 52%? 99%? Or 'it depends on how you define things'?. It reads a little too much like an attempt to shoehorn diverse data into a convenient stereotypical description. This is exactly what motivates much of recent anthropological criticism of the way the topic has been handled. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  You can find a freely accessible copy of the Otto article here. Another interesting article I've been reading recently on the topic of Cargo cullts is What’s the Matter with Cargo Cults Today? (open access) from 2013 by Marc Tabani. The article is decidely less critical of the "cargo cult" concept than some anthropologists, and provides interesting qualifying criteria for "cargo cults". A big problem is that there is that there are seemingly two uses of the term "cargo cult", the broad (sensu lato) use for basically every Melanesian new religious movement, and a more narrow (sensu stricto) definition based around prophecies to obtain Western material goods. Obviously depending on how you define "cargo cult" is going to change whether Western material goods are a characteristic feature. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Hemiauchenia! I'd know how to read "ambivalent", but what does "definitely ambivalent" mean? Like you feel strongly that they neither help nor hurt? In my previous posts ^ I provided the relevant quotes that I'm using from the various sources, I am happy to provide more quotes e.g. keyword searches if either of you would like. I'll take a look at Tabani (2013) now.

I understand the concern about "most", but I feel the same way about "some". I see it as an issue of WP:DUE weight. For instance, in my most recent edit, which I believe is the most defensible, I found that literally every source I've read agreed that ancestral spirits were involved in the belief system. I can admit there are certain exceptions that make specific phrasing difficult though. I am extremely willing to compromise on phrasing. For instance, Tokeriu's prophecy, as mentioned by Andy earlier, on page 52 of Worsley, did appeal to ancestors through ritual, and did believe that the ancestors would return on a ship, and did believe that a great abundance of food would result, however they believed that the food would grow and be harvested rather than physically arrive on the ship. How could we phrase the general idea to avoid this confusion? For instance, the current phrasing I could see either way. I wrote ancestors bringing an abundance of food, which you could interpret to mean that the ancestors would bring an abundance of food literally physically on the ship (not accurate to this case), or that the appeal to the ancestors would bring about an abundance of food by some other means (accurate).

But rather than getting into the specifics, speaking broadly, I'm okay with qualifying statements like "claims made by these prophets varied greatly from movement to movement". And at the same time I think it's appropriate to, for example, mention things like veneration of the dead and millenarianism "front and center", because that lines up with the definitions given in reliable sources, even though it will be disappointing to a reader who is expecting to hear the pop culture understanding. I think my previous posts have explained clearly how I've grounded each change in the sources. I'm totally open to discussing any/all of them. Leijurv (talk) 21:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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@Hemiauchenia: With respect to making the lede of the article understandable to a broad audience (MOS:LEDE, WP:ONEDOWN) and addressing the "insufficient context" maintenance template, I believe your edit is moving in a counterproductive direction. Although the fortelling of the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy has often been considered a defining feature of cargo cults, this was not a universal feature of movements that have been included under the label, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods. This is incredibly wordy and awkward and I don't really understand why you made this edit, since you didn't use an edit summary and didn't explain on the talk page. What were you going for? To my read, it conveys essentially the same meaning in a much more convoluted way.

For what it's worth, I thought the previous phrasing (Most groups foretold the coming of a bounty of Western goods or money as part of their prophecy, although this was not a universal feature of such movements, with other prophets telling their followers to abandon Western goods.) was already a little convoluted, but I didn't really touch it because you and Andy seem to really want to say that some cargo cults rejected Western goods. I would agree that there's nuance here, most pertinently in the misattribution of goods as having come from ancestral spirits when they were truly of Western make. But I don't think this phrasing in the lede helps the reader with that nuance, at all. In particular, I take issue with has often been considered a defining feature since the WP:INTEXT attribution is superfluous, and I take issue with the Although since it's WP:SYNTH to imply a tension/contradiction when it isn't stated in the source. And I also take issue with movements that have been included under the label, which is a perfect example of adding convoluted phrasing that hurts understanding. In the lede, we're talking about cargo cults, and we use shorthand like the movements or the groups. There's no need to "backtrack" and retreat into using phrases like movements that some anthropologists have included under the label of "cargo cult" in every sentence. We can just say such movements, like the rest of the lede does. Leijurv (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: for his take. It's obvious that most historic definitions of "cargo cult" include the prophecy for a bounty of Western material goods as part of the definition, even if a number of the movements covered in the works that use these definitions don't necessarily actually prophesise this. Out of the sources you've used to say that "most cargo cults phrophesised the coming of Western material goods", I'm unclear about what sources say this explicitly. From my reading of the literature they either take the prophecies for Western material goods as foundational to the definition of "cargo cult" or in the modern revisionist school, reject the validity of the concept entirely. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: Thank you for the clarification! Restating your position to ensure I understand. You contend that: while most sources do agree that Western goods were foretold by cargo cults, we need sources that explicitly say that "most" cargo cults foretold Western goods. Is that right?

I'm unclear about what sources say this explicitly I can clear up the skepticism through these sources to support my phrasing:

1. Lindstrom (2018) Ethnographers suggested that ‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money I read this as "According to ethnographers, the "cargo" that the cults desired was often Western goods".

2. Otto (2009) the cargo cult concept highlights a range of millenarian ideas, cults, and movements that originated in the wake of Western colonization and, more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the cargo Otto plainly says more often than not.

3. Otto (2009) In spite of the enormous variety of phenomena that have been branded as cargo cult in Melanesia, from the early beginnings to the present, it is pos- sible to identify a number of elements that are present in most of them in various combinations. In particular, I would mention the following: the development of a certain myth-dream, a synthesis of various indigenous and foreign narrative elements and religious concepts; the expectation of the help and/or return of the ancestors; the emergence of leaders with special experiences and/or knowledge; and a strong belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods. These characteristics give a fair picture of the prominent aspects of most cargo cults ... Otto says that these beliefs, such as appearance of goods, are present in most cargo cults.

4. Schwartz (1974) Although no two cargo cults were exactly alike, a number of basic beliefs recurred in most. The ancestors would return. The dead would be reunited with the living on a given day, suddenly and totally. The ancestors, when they returned, would bring with them a 'cargo' consisting of the goods and wealth of the Europeans as well as the bounty of land and sea. This source, again, says most cargo cults had these basic beliefs.

5. Steinbauer (1979) as referenced in Otto (2009): Using such a comparative perspective, Steinbauer (1979), for example, can state that about two-thirds of all the cargo cults he has found in the literature have as their main aim the attainment of material wealth and that they use “magical practices” to this end

And you could arguably even include Macintyre (2010) as referenced in Tabani (2013), which you yourself added to the article today They entail beliefs in the return of ancestors bringing wealth in the form of money, European goods etc –‘cargo’. The source calls these a cluster of attributes or a blend of elements that is typical of similar movements in Papua New Guinea. So it doesn't say that "all" cargo cults had all of these traits, simply that these are typical characteristic of cargo cults, which I think supports "most".

Overall, there are several reliable sources that directly state that "most" cargo cults foretold Western goods, as you requested. I'm sure I can find more if you like. Additionally, we have many reliable sources that go even further, saying that prophecies of Western goods are definitional to cargo cults, as you mentioned. Therefore, I feel very comfortable with the phrasing that "most" cargo cults foretold a coming abundance of goods. Leijurv (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

December 2024

@RacingCloud: Your edit is sourced, but, not neutral. Look at WP:NPOV or the neutrality quiz. Yes, they did engage in ritual action in pursuit of cargo, and yes the ritual action was often influenced by colonization / technology. But this is a situation where straying from the WP:RS is a minefield, it can be easy to accidentally engage in WP:SYNTH. The current lead is phrased very carefully, you can see such discussion in the above section. typically through the ritual imitation of the activities of colonial or technological cultures might be true, but it's not enough to be true, it also has to be WP:DUE. To put it in the very first sentence of the lede is probably WP:UNDUE. I'm sympathetic to your complaint: the intro fails to describe the phenomenon in any detail and the later mentioning are too overdrawn for anyone unfamiliar with the subject to easily understand, but what's WP:DUE in the lead is a matter of consensus, and the current state is a compromise. Leijurv (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, none of the sources are high quality enough for this topic area which is heavily covered by scholarly, academic sources. ZME Science is a run of the mill internet "science news" site with little reputation and no particular expertise in the subject, and afrinik looks like a straight-up content farm. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

ZME is a reputable source that describes and documents the phenomenon in a way that it can be readily understood by those unfamiliar with the subject, even if the basic understanding misses that the topic covers a wide variety of subjects. The page muddles even a basic understanding of the subject by failing to describe any of the rituals or document any of the activities associated with it RacingCloud (talk) 21:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

That's because there were dozens of different movements which differed wildly from each other in many aspects. It's easily to project confidence about a topic if you don't really understand it. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Yet none of these examples are listed, just very general non-specific descriptions that fail to summarize what the phenomenon is in any meaningful sense

"In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the military personnel use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day-to-day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles. The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses"

This is the best the article does at explaining the idea simply but it's half way through the article and there are no pictures showing any of it RacingCloud (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

That's because the "cargo cult" phenomenon is so heterogeneous it is hard to meaningfully summarise without being misleading or giving undue emphasis to the practices of particular groups like the John Frum movement. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:42, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Its not misleading to give a clear cut example, its only misleading if thats the only example given. Giving a simple example allows more complex and nuanced cases to be presented in comparison to have proper understanding. A proper intro would read "a set of behaviors ranging from imitating airports and runways to a syncretism of tribal religious practices that incorporated colonial military parades", something that gives a sense of understanding RacingCloud (talk) 21:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, the focus on imitating runways is something that is prominent in pop culture because of the John Frum movement but from my reading about cargo cults it isn't actually that representatitve cargo cults collectively. Also the article does mention mention examples of practices in the "Causes, beliefs, and practices" section: cargo cult movements sought to revive ancestral traditions (often in the face of their suppression by missionaries or colonial authorities) such as kava drinking, and/or adopt new rituals such as ecstatic dancing or actions imitative of colonial practices, like flag-raising and marching. That said, I wouldn't oppose the mention of "flag-raising and marching" in the opening section. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:58, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Precisely because it is so identifiable in pop culture is why it needs to be mentioned at the forefront to have the whole set of ideas presented in context, the ZME article does this suitably RacingCloud (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The purpose of Wikipedia is not to confirm peoples pre-existing stereotypes, but to document what reliable, scholarly sources have said about a topic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

But the article fails to convey any of those ideas by refusing to give clear cut examples of what it is, especially in the intro where a person who knows nothing about the subject would need additional clarification, likely finding the ZME article I listed which has many of the same quotes as the Wiki page along with photo documentation. The concept more or less revolves around a misunderstanding of western technology and culture, something the Wiki page again fails to convey. RacingCloud (talk) 22:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

It is true that the lead currently fails to mention the misunderstanding of cargo as coming from ancestors versus Western industry. This is mentioned in this part of the main article: Since the modern manufacturing process was largely unknown to them, members, leaders, and prophets of the cults often maintained that the manufactured goods of the non-native culture had been created by spiritual means, such as through their deities and ancestors, or that an ancestor had learned how to manufacture the goods.[1] These leaders claimed that the goods were intended for the local indigenous people, but the foreigners had unfairly gained control of these objects through malice or mistake.[12] Thus, a characteristic feature of cargo cults was the belief that spiritual agents would, at some future time, give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members.[12] and is well-sourced. I also found this misunderstanding to be frequently mentioned in other sources. @Hemiauchenia: Couldn't the lead mention this? Right now the lead contains a collection of well-sourced statements, but the connective tissue is lacking. Sure, it says that dead ancestors would bring food and goods, it says that new rituals were meant to appease these dead ancestors, and it mentions an example of such a ritual being imitating the actions of colonists. But that's so.... abstract, removed, vague. I believe it would make way more sense if we took some of that well sourced material and mentioned it in the lead, explaining that the groups believed that these ancestors were the manufacturers of Western cargo. Without that information, I'm sympathetic to the complaint that the lead doesn't make sense (the "why" is missing right now). Leijurv (talk) 00:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Done [3]. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Cool! Leijurv (talk) 00:40, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

The article is still messy and fails to convey any idea of what any of these groups are in a reasonable amount of detail. The article says itself that "The John Frum movement has come to be described as the "archetypal" cargo cult." so refusing to clarify the connection in the intro is absurd. The intro should read

"Cargo cults are a diverse and varied sets of beliefs and practices found in Melanesia with many, but not all, stemming from misunderstanding and emulation of western technology and culture. These practices would range from imitation of western technology and practices, the John Frum movement, to shamanistic rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by creating their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation). These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. As they are incredibly varied and inconsistent with their beliefs and practices, many anthropologists view the movements as reactions to colonial pressures disturbing the pre-existing cultures and ways of life of Melanesian peoples. The slaughtering of livestock and praying for hope of whites to leave the lands shares aspects of other anti-colonial Millenarian spiritual movements such as the Ghost Dance or Boxer Rebellion. See Millenarianism in colonial societies" RacingCloud (talk) 16:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you add cited sources like the lead currently has? Personally I think what you write here is probably supported by sources but you have to back it up. For the actual content, I agree that "misunderstanding and emulation of western technology and culture" is an important part of the topic... is it "first sentence"-level important? I'm not sure. For example looking at the characteristics that Hemiauchenia added in this edit, the first one listed was They involve ritual activities that in some way imitate or mimic actions associated with whites/Europeans, which supports your perspective. But on the other hand, we have other WP:RS such as Lindstrom (2018) that don't mention this misunderstanding in their abstract at all. Therefore, this is an issue of balancing WP:DUE. The prominence in the lead should approximately match the prominence in reliable sources. Leijurv (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults are a diverse and varied sets of beliefs and practices found in Melanesia with many, but not all, stemming from misunderstanding and emulation of western technology and culture.[4] [5] These practices would range from imitation of western technology and practices, the John Frum movement , to shamanistic rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by creating their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation)[6]. These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. As they are incredibly varied and inconsistent with their beliefs and practices, many anthropologists view the movements as reactions to colonial pressures disturbing the pre-existing cultures and ways of life of Melanesian peoples. The slaughtering of livestock and praying for hope of whites to leave the lands shares aspects of other anti-colonial Millenarian spiritual movements such as the Ghost Dance or Boxer Rebellion. See Millenarianism in colonial societies"

The source Lindstrom (2018) very clearly notes this misunderstanding :

"The new term disposed observers to find common elements and themes, including: desire for cargo (however imagined); expectation of spiritual assistance, whether from the ancestral dead or Christian figures, as locally reimagined; mimetic ritual reflecting European colonial or wartime practices (flags and flagpoles; marching and drilling); the washing and other manipulation of money; and ecstatic dancing and other forms of paroxysm. Cargo prophecy varied from movement to movement, although a common assertion was that ancestral spirits (who governed natural forces and fertility) were equally implicated in the production of manufactured goods. A technologically wise ancestor, perhaps, had sailed off to America, or Europe, or Australia and there was taught the secrets of cargo. Or, wily Europeans were filching cargo that ancestral spirits were beneficently shipping to their descendants."

"Predictions circulated about the return of ancestral spirits on ghost steam ships carrying desirable cargo. Enthusiasts abandoned the traditional male initiation ceremony and destroyed ritual artifacts, mimed Australian tea parties at flower-bedecked tables, and took up marching, drilling, and ecstatic dancing. "

So yes this is first sentence level important RacingCloud (talk) 17:32, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Making the same point again and again after you have failed to gain consensus for them is a violation of Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Failure_or_refusal_to_"get_the_point". You are free to make a post at WP:RSN or at WP:NPOVN to attract other participants to the discussion, but you can't just expect to win Wikipedia disputes by reiterating yourself. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The other user has said he agrees with what I have written, I only need to source everything, which I have done. What is your problem with what I have written? I'm even using the source provided by @Leijurv to back my claim RacingCloud (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

RacingCloud, what's going on here is that Wiki policies have status quo bias. When a new user comes in and proposes big changes, it's very very very easy to engage in status quo stonewalling if you don't follow every policy perfectly. (related links WP:LISTEN, WP:SATISFY, WP:CAPITULATE). I am trying to at least give you some explanation. (particularly: what you write is supported by some of the sources, that's not the issue. again, the issue is due weight). Now, you've demonstrated that the misunderstanding of ancestor vs European is present in Lindstrom. I don't dispute that. The question is, again, about the prominence of this characteristic. That's why I said it isn't in the abstract of Lindstrom, because that approximates how critical it is to a summary. The very first sentence of wiki articles is supposed to define the topic (see MOS:FIRST). The current first sentence is fine in my opinion. It neutrally describes the cults as a reaction to western colonization - that's certainly true, almost by definition / by construction. I agree that the ancestor/European misunderstanding is common, frequent, typical. But is it foundational, definitional? I am open to the idea of "re weighting" the lead overall to be clear. But you might be better served going point by point, or sentence by sentence. And to hemiauchenia, come on, that was WP:SQS, racingcloud has presented an alternate lead with sources, that's really not Making the same point again and again, it's clearly new. Leijurv (talk) 18:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The current lead of this article is structured very similarly to the abstract of Lindstrom 2018 and places about the same amount of weight on the aspect of "cargo" being Western material goods, where it is placed into proper context. I feel restructuring the lead to place the cargo in the opening sentence as proposed by Racingcloud doesn't really improve the article and would need to result in a lot of awkward rewrites, and the focus on Western material goods is already well explained fairly early in the introduction. I see no reason to cite ZME Science (who's piece, having read it more carefully, is much better than the other source RacingCloud cited and is honestly not bad for a non-expert take on the topic) per WP:RS Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks! I do agree, as I've made clear in my past comments, that Lindstrom is clearly RS, its abstract is high quality, and putting the "misunderstanding" into the very first sentence is undue. I also agree that the current sources like Lindstrom and Otto and others are higher quality than ZME, nevertheless ZME also looked fine to me. So I don't disagree with anything you just said. At the same time, I'm sympathetic to the complaint that the lead (after the first sentence) somewhat meanders around and doesn't say much clearly. That's why I am entertaining the idea of reworking it in general (while disagreeing with some specifics of what racingcloud wrote). Leijurv (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The abstract in does say "in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. ".

The intro is structured like the Lindstrom article but that is more or less the problem, the Lindstrom is a scholarly work for other anthropologists, not laymen who don't already know what a "Cargo Cult" or "Millenarian" movement is.

The ZME article reiterates the same ideas in the Lindstrom article, again quoting the same material the current page already does, but in a way that's more easily accessible to anyone unfamiliar with the subject. Generally better doesn't mean it's not valid RacingCloud (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with decreasing the academic-ness relative to our source, see WP:ONEDOWN and also WP:FORMAL. Nevertheless I reiterate that WP:DUE is policy and when combined with MOS:FIRST, I don't believe we can write such a strong statement in the first sentence. We can make the lead accessible while still following due weight and high quality sources. I think going point by point is best. Leijurv (talk) 19:06, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century. These practices would range from misunderstood imitations of western technology and practices (the John Frum movement), to syncretic shamanistic rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by creating their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation)[10]. These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. Many of the ideas associated with Cargo Cults such as the slaughtering of livestock and praying for hope of colonists to leave the lands shares aspects of other anti-colonial Millenarian spiritual movements such as the Ghost Dance or Boxer Rebellion. See Millenarianism in colonial societies"

[8] [9] RacingCloud (talk) 19:32, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, in general, I like it. The specifics might need a bit of work, for example it goes a bit beyond what the article body actually covers (last sentence). But in general, I like how it dives right in with characteristic beliefs. We might want to reorder it so that appeals to ancestors are first and foremost, rather than second, to better match prominence in sources. Also, shouldn't we keep the last sentence of the current lead paragraph? Leijurv (talk) 19:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonisation of the region in the late 19th century. These practices would range from syncretic shamanistic rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits, to misunderstood imitations of western technology and practices (the John Frum movement), to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by creating their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation)[10]. These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both. Many of the ideas associated with cargo cults share aspects of other anti-colonial Millenarian spiritual movements such as the Ghost Dance or Boxer Rebellion. See Millenarianism in colonial societies

I do find it important to connect it with other Colonial Millenarian movements as I personally didn't see the obvious connections until I had to write all of this up RacingCloud (talk) 19:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree it's interesting, and I have no problem with putting "Millenarianism in colonial societies" in the See also, but I worry that your last sentence still has issues with WP:SYNTH and MOS:LEAD. Do you have a source specifically making the connection to ghost dance and boxer rebellion, and is that connection so prominent that it belongs in the lead paragraph? It's probably better suited down in the article body. Other than that, I am generally in support. Leijurv (talk) 20:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

@Dan Murphy: any thoughts on this proposed version? My opinion is that while there is some parts of this proposed lead that are ok, there are others that I object to. I agree with Leijuriv that the Boxer rebellion and ghost dance comparisons (particularly the Boxer rebellion) are a bit tangential, and I haven't seen any sources make specific connections between cargo cults and them, so I agree that seems like OR. I disagree that the John Frum movement was based on misunderstood imitations of western technology or that it was somehow different from the previously mentioned syncretic shamanistic rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods and I don't think that this is supported by academic sources discussing the topic. I think the current lead is much clearer at defining the characteristics of cargo cults, while this proposed versions seems a bit all over the place and confusing. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point hemiauchenia, I missed that part. Yes. For misunderstood imitations of western technology there is indeed a touch of WP:SYNTH. Specifically, yes the groups often misunderstood the origins of goods. This misunderstanding often fed into and combined with their beliefs about appeals to ancestors through ritual. And they often imitated western rituals (like marching and flag raising). But specifically imitating western technology I'm not sure if we can say that was as frequent / typical. Certainly John Frum did this, and certainly there were a few runways / airplanes built yes, but I don't believe the sources agree that was common. Leijurv (talk) 21:11, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, I don't see the reason to use the word "shamanism", which from reading academic literature is only infrequently used in reference to cargo cults. "Shamanism" is generally used to refer to attempting to contact the spirit world via altered states of consciousness, which seems rather different than imitating a military parade. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:20, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, yeah Leijurv (talk) 21:27, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The last sentence isn't a hill I'll die on but there are books like Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living that do make the connection. It would also be wise to include photos of the mentioned groups RacingCloud (talk) 22:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century. These practices would range from tribal rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits and misunderstood imitations of western technology and practices (the John Frum movement), to syncretic movements that blended tribal beliefs and Christianity, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by creating their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation)[10]. These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both.

It's amazing how the talk on this subject has been so stagnant, its just been a repeat for the last 6 months RacingCloud (talk) 18:48, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's swap "technology and practices" to "practices and technology" then I would support this over the current lead. I like how it keeps the first and last sentence and just rearranges the intermediate points in a more clear way with less hedging, giving clear examples rather than waffling. Leijurv (talk) 19:45, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

To say they didn't misunderstand western culture and technology while acknowledging they built fake airports and thought their ancestors were the ones sending the cargo is an extreme contradiction. You already have mentions of using fake or wooden rifles in the article while pretty much every source attests to mimicry of colonial actions, such as marches, flag raising, and tea parties. The John Frum movement numbered as much as 5000 in the 90s according to this [7], and John Frum isn't even the only person mentioned, Tom Navy is another figure, not to mention the Prince Philip Cult that believes the late Duke was a mountain spirit and brother of John Frum. To say these are not representative of the movement is being obtuse, even if there are many others. The only group listed in the article that doesn't seem to misunderstand what the cargo is Pomio Kivung who understand that cargo comes from western industry, but they think their ancestors will come back as white industrialists according to Whitehouse. Inside the Cult. p. 43 RacingCloud (talk) 05:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the contradiction. I am simply agreeing that appeals to ancestors through ritual in pursuit of cargo is typical, common, frequent. There's a difference between mimicking a ritual (like flag raising) and mimicking a piece of technology (building a plane). Sure it's blurry and unclear and there's overlap. But from my read of the sources, there were some construction projects like storehouse and jetties (per Worsley), sure, but those aren't "incorrect" mimicking of technology. They had functional boats, docks, buildings. For a misunderstanding of technology, that brings us to the "stereotypical" "pop culture" cargo cult construction project, which is an airplane and runway, which I contend wasn't AS common. Note the "as", which is also present in my previous message. Per due weight, that's why I suggest to deemphasize it, because our reliable sources also deemphasize it relative to the other attributes (copying rituals rather than physical objects). I will admit however your point about wooden rifles. That is a good point and it does move me in the direction of "misunderstood imitations of western technology" being due. And since it's phrased as "technology and practices", maybe we can just reorder to "practices and technology", I think I'd be fine with that (let's see what hemiauchenia thinks) Leijurv (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Another idea could be to write "misunderstanding of western manufacturing", to make it more clear that we are talking more about the origins of the goods and less about misc technologies like radios, planes, rifles. Leijurv (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You say that those aren't as common, but of the 3 groups listed on the Wiki, 3 are just the John Frum movement, the Tom Navy and Prince Philip groups are John Frum believers too. the John Frum movement is in itself many smaller movements.

"to make it more clear that we are talking more about the origins of the goods and less about misc technologies like radios, planes, rifles"

Why? If they're using wooden headphones and rifles, its clear they don't understand much of the technology, let alone where it comes from. RacingCloud (talk) 20:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, I'm not debating if it's true, I'm debating if it belongs in the lede. I'm not trying to say that they didn't misunderstand those things. It's just that whether they understood radios is trivia, not fundamental to explaining what was going on with cargo cults. Misunderstanding the origin of goods IS fundamental to understanding what was going on, since it explains why they thought more goods could be acquired through a religious / ritualistic appeal to ancestors. Leijurv (talk) 20:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It is because thats why this article has been labeled as confusing for those unfamiliar with the subject, they don't understand what the point of the term is. Like myself and others have said for 6 months, the source of the phrase needs to be explained before it can be explained that the misunderstanding is only part of a much wider scope of ideas. RacingCloud (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Umm, I completely agree, but doesn't that support my perspective? If we put in a touch of narrativization, explaining why they thought these rituals would bring cargo, doesn't that help "motivate" the whole article? If we just generically say that they misunderstood western tech, doesn't that add to the confusion floating around the idea? It fails to convey why they tried this imitation in the first place. Leijurv (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the term "cargo cult" is confusing, even to people well read on the topic. That's why anthropologists abandoned it. It's impossible to give a definition of "cargo cult" as concise as you seem to think is possible without being misleading or reducing cargo cults to pop culture caricature. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's confusing but nevertheless we are writing an article about it. Saying it's confusing doesn't give us an "escape hatch" or "get our of jail free card" to ignore WP:DUE and WP:FALSEBALANCE. This is why I somewhat ignore the complaint of "it's confusing" and forge ahead regardless in trying to summarize it in a way that matches prominence in sources, in describing what's definitional versus typical versus "sometimes" (and that's also why I complain about misattributing a characteristic as "some" vs "most" vs almost always). Leijurv (talk) 21:34, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Isthistwisted, Carllottery , Fastitocalons, 2 random IP June 16th, Kenton M, Jokertyf, PenguiN42, Joeletaylor, Ohmsteader, Alsadius, Random IP June 18th, every one of these people over the last 6 months has proposed that the stereotypical, pop culture usage of the term needs to be defined first so it can be explained that in-depth research led to this term being considered inaccurate or outdated. There is a consensus, why won't you admit that? RacingCloud (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Because that's not how consensus on Wikipedia is defined. If the cumulative opinions of random drive-by users could define Wikipedia consensus, then Wikipedia would collapse into a mire of misinformation much like the rest of the internet. Wikipedia is WP:NOTDEMOCRACY or social media. See also Wikipedia:Lunatic charlatans, where over 10,000 people signed a petition against Wikipedia, only to get laughed at. Many of these users you cite were driven to the page by a viral Twitter post that was very critical of a version of the lead that was very different (and truthfully, worse) than version that is currently in the article, and so it's not suprising that their opinions are critical, because their participation was effectively WP:CANVASSED to the article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

you can't say that about all of them, let alone most of them. And the post that that went viral did so because there is an issue. If they all wanted to discuss different things it would be different, but we're all saying the same thing is needed. The definition of cargo cult only became complex after further study was warranted by initial intrigue of groups like the John Frum group, this shouldn't be controversial RacingCloud (talk) 02:24, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Over a dozen people have had this exact same discussion, it hits this point and it stagnates because you people will not add a simple line clarifying the origin of the term in the opening paragraph. This is not controversial

"The term originated after WWII when it was noted that indigenous Melanesians who had observed American soldiers and airplanes would build crude imitations of aircrafts and airports they believed would attract "cargo", but after many years studying the subject, most anthropologists now believe the term fails to capture the true scope and meaning of these movements, and is now considered obsolete"

Why will you not allow this? RacingCloud (talk) 05:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@RacingCloud:, we've linked to WP:DUE a dozen times now. Sure, that's the origin of the term. But we are writing about the topic, not the term, since Wikipedia is not a dictionary WP:NOTDICTIONARY. It would be highly undue to begin the article with the coinage of the term. It's not enough to follow WP:V, you have to follow WP:NPOV too. For example, the whole thing with the airplanes is highly prominent in the pop culture understanding - but when you look into the actual reliable sources that cover the topic, it's not that prominent at all, hence we mention it down in the article body but not in the lead.

At the same time, to @Hemiauchenia:, I need to gently partially agree with racingcloud... you have to realize that it's your edits to the lead from ~January through ~June that has led to these tens of thousands of words of argument on this talk page. We've gone back and forth a whole bunch so I won't rehash it in this message, you know what the overall complaint is: it's not comprehensible to a general audience. I appreciate your collaboration such as in the last few days and I think you're obviously editing in good faith. I just think the link to WP:NOTDEMOCRACY is a bit much. In general you have to agree that the reason why all the various drive-by new editors have been rebuffed is generally just that they haven't taken the time to substantiate their claim through reliable sources and policies and such. This doesn't actually make them wrong. I came to this article just like that with my preconceived notions, the only difference is that I was annoyed enough, and had enough prior wiki experience, and willingness to read sources, that I could substantiate the rather straightforward arguments I made in the above talk page section. Sure, all these other people coming to the talk page to complain didn't have the time or the willingness to dig in to the tune of 10k+ words of wikilawyering but, again, that doesn't make them wrong, in fact I think they're generally very correct. Anyway, you probably already know all this, and obviously I appreciate that we do, actually, need to somewhat rebuff the pop culture understanding in favor of reliable sources, I just think we can do that and also get to an end result that makes sense to an average reader. I will get off the soapbox now Leijurv (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You're feigning impartiality to stonewall any attempt to make an incredibly easy fix. There is consensus to add a simple detail to clarify the origin of the term. Its not undue or dictionary like, its appropriate for an encyclopedia to explain the origin of an idea and why its no longer considered accurate. How many words have an etymology section? The Term was created to describe this exact phenomenon, it was not until greater study this was revealed to be wrong. This is in the literature

"Indeed, on the island of Tanna (Vanuatu), for example, it is “true” that people built airstrips in the 1950s to await the landing of planes loaded with Western commodities promised to them by a spiritual guide, prophet or spirit called John Frum. Those expectations involve complex aspirations that extend beyond coveting fridges or cars, but their material manifestation is undeniable, even if not sufficient at all. In regards to globalization process the factuality of past and present movements once labeled as cargo cult “should be understood as an encounter between materialism and something beyond materialism which might be called ‘religious’ but which probably needs another name, since that term doesn’t make much sense anymore because, for so many people, it isn’t a matter of ‘belief’ but instead of knowledge” (Dalton Ch. 2)."

One of the sources has multiple chapters discussing this. This is insanity

"Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond, RacingCloud (talk) 14:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

"Definitions. Articles should begin with a good definition or description, but articles that contain nothing more than a definition should be expanded with additional encyclopedic content."

You are only providing a definition without enough encyclopedic information to give a new reader enough context RacingCloud (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

7. Scientific journals: a Wikipedia article should not be presented on the assumption that the reader is well-versed in the topic's field. Article titles should reflect common usage, not academic terminology, whenever possible. Introductory language in the lead (and sometimes the initial sections) of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts that can be understood by any literate reader of Wikipedia without any knowledge in the given field before advancing to more detailed explanations of the topic.

Heres a rule saying the article needs to be accessible for new readers unfamiliar and discuss common terminology BEFORE discussing more advanced explanations RacingCloud (talk) 15:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

24 hrs and no response. After 6 months and a direct quotation from the rules, will you allow a line explaining that the term was coined to describe groups like the John Frum groups? And why this is no longer considered accurate?

"The term originated after WWII when it was noted that indigenous Melanesians who had observed American soldiers and airplanes would build crude imitations of aircrafts and airports they believed would attract "cargo". But after many years studying the subject, most anthropologists now believe the term fails to capture the true scope and meaning of these movements, and is now considered obsolete" RacingCloud (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I am certainly not stonewalling, look at any of my messages in this section. Also keep in mind that I am largely on your side, again look at any of my messages in this section. I recognize your quote supporting the airstrips, and I don't dispute that Lindstrom (1993) is a reliable source. I am fully agreed on Introductory language in the lead (and sometimes the initial sections) of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts in fact that's my main disagreement with hemiauchenia. The tricky part is that, nevertheless, we must follow WP:RS and WP:DUE. The common usage of "cargo cult" refers to the actual movements that happened in real life (that's why the article isn't titled something academic like An overview of Millennarian movements in colonial Melanesia nor An overview of Western popular culture (mis)understanding of Millennarian movements in colonial Melanesia, it's just titled Cargo cult). Crucially, you won't be able to find a guideline that says that the things we write about the topic should skew the prominence towards what the common / pop culture understanding expects. That's not Wikipedia policy. Prominence is weighted according to reliable sources. So, again, even though the pop culture understanding of cargo cults centers around airplanes, sure, and even though you can find reliable sources that agree that that happened, sure, that's still insufficient to put that information in such a degree of prominence such as the first sentence of the article. You would need secondary or even tertiary sources (e.g. Lindstrom (2018)) that give such prominence and coverage to the "Cargo cult as airplane imitation" perspective. For a sentence like that on the origin of the term, I think you're more likely to succeed if you propose it lower in the lede. For example, how about inserting the etymology sentence between the 1st and 2nd sentences of the second paragraph? I think that would fit better since at that point we're talking about Western coverage of the movements rather than the movements themselves. Groups labeled as cargo cults were subject to a considerable number of anthropological publications from the late 1940s to the 1960s. <here> After Melanesian countries gained political independence, few new groups matching the term have emerged since the 1970s Leijurv (talk) 19:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

"Crucially, you won't be able to find a guideline that says that the things we write about the topic should skew the prominence towards what the common/ pop culture understanding expects."

"Article titles should reflect common usage, not academic terminology, whenever possible. Introductory language in the lead (and sometimes the initial sections) of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts that can be understood by any literate reader of Wikipedia without any knowledge in the given field before advancing to more detailed explanations of the topic"

You are very clearly wrong. Whats more, the term was initially created to describe the people building airplanes. It was only after further research other groups were lumped together under the label. It's not a matter of how prominent was it in the whole story, it is prominent because it's where the interest in the story begins. Anything retroactively called a cargo cult was done so RETROACTIVELY. Anything that was labeled a cargo cult but was not part of the John Frum movement was done so after further study.

It needs to go in the first paragraph, It can be the 2nd sentence, but it needs to be in the beginning RacingCloud (talk) 20:09, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I dont understand how you say its skewing understanding to explain the origin of the term and explain why it became obsolete. This entire book is explaining why it became a racist obsolete term after it was initially coined to describe The John Frum Movement and the people who built fake airplanes [8]https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv9zcktq RacingCloud (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I stand by what I said there. Article titles should reflect common usage... I covered this in my last message, this only refers to the title of the article being "Cargo cult". ...written in plain terms and concepts... and for this part, let me attempt to clear up the confusion. Writing in plain comprehensible terms is not the same thing as skewing the prominence of different aspects of the subject to accord better to a pop culture understanding. Let me take an example from the neutrality quiz: let's say that the pop culture understanding is vaccines have pros and cons, maybe they are a bit risky, some people even think they cause autism. Does that mean we should say that in the article? No. The article should use "plain terms and concepts" to explain itself while remaining neutral relative to the sources (e.g. vaccines do not cause autism), but that is not the same thing as skewing the prominence of fringe aspects (which might sound like Some scientists think vaccines cause autism, others don't). In short, writing using plain terms and concepts is a totally different thing than giving appropriate weight and prominence, they are not the same thing at all. You can write something in plain terms that is non-neutral, and you can write something in academic incomprehensible language that is neutral. Leijurv (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Its not the pop culture understanding, its the origin of the term. To split hairs and say only the title has to be whats commonly understood, the intro has no obligation to mention the origin, is incredibly weak reasoning.

"and you can write something in academic incomprehensible language that is neutral" this is precisely what you have done to the article. RacingCloud (talk) 23:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

"It would be highly undue to begin the article with the coinage of the term" How on earth is it undue in an encyclopedia to mention the origin of a phrase? It is contradictory to say its wrong to provide context because the phrase means something else now. It's completely neutral to state a fact RacingCloud (talk) 23:44, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

the intro has no obligation to mention the origin [of the term], How on earth is it undue in an encyclopedia to mention the origin of a phrase? Yes, that's correct, there is no obligation for the etymology of the term to go at the beginning of the intro, near the beginning, in the intro at all, or in the article at all. Don't confuse etymology with definition. Using my previous vaccine example, you can see that we have The terms vaccine and vaccination are derived from... but it's not the first or second sentence of the article. Obviously. That would be silly. The article defines what a vaccine is, that's important and due, but the origin of the term is not automatically relevant. I feel the same way here, it's a Use-mention distinction.

this is precisely what you have done to the article Don't confuse me with hemiauchenia or other editors, you can see the previous section on this talk page was me arguing at length to improve the comprehensibility of the intro. If you think it's bad today, take a look at this version from June or this version as of when I wrote my initial complaint in the previous section. Also recall that I support your earlier rewrite. Leijurv (talk) 00:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Every other language version of the article explains either in the intro or very early on the origin of the phrase because the mystical beliefs around cargo are what unite most of these groups. This version of the article muddles that by refusing to say in simple terms what a cargo cult first was and where it comes from, obfuscating it in the middle of a lengthy run-on sentence that doesn't explain why they were wanting "cargo" in the first place or why they thought ancestral spirits were responsible for its creation. Without the misunderstanding of what cargo is, there's nothing separating these from regular indigenous religions or just regular cults, meaning theres no reason to have this article at all, which the article itself seems to be arguing.

Because it's such a complex topic, without that basic grounded understanding, the nuance and in-depth explanations lack sufficient context. RacingCloud (talk) 02:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

are what unite most of these groups I agree that the attributes that unite most of these groups, according to reliable sources, should go into the lead. refusing to say in simple terms what a cargo cult first was and where it comes from I agree, I have been saying this for months. lengthy run-on sentence I agree, the recent condensing of the lead into essentially one sentence is suboptimal. I think it's still a bit better than before. doesn't explain why they were wanting "cargo" in the first place or why they thought ancestral spirits were responsible for its creation I agree, but this is more detailed than we might be able to get into. We are painting with a broad brush with liberal application of error bar words like typically, usually, often, etc. Need to be careful not to overstep. The general idea of "they generally thought ancestors would return with food and goods" seems to be broadly true, and a few other similar things as we've gone over in past messages. Without the misunderstanding of what cargo is, there's nothing separating these from regular indigenous religions or just regular cults Totally agreed, honestly I think the lead is already like 80% of the way there compared to where it was a few months ago (see the links in my last message), but yes it needs to clearly say what makes a cargo cult a cargo cult... doesn't it mostly already though? (Again, I am in support of your earlier rewrite) Leijurv (talk) 06:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I realized after looking at every other version of the article, even the simple English version, that this is the only version that doesn't explain the origin of the term simply. Its just you two refusing to clarify what the term means. Every dictionary defines it this way. Every encyclopedia defines this way. Every source cited describes them like this.

The compromised change earlier is too far compromised by trying to please you two

Merriam-Webster defines a cargo cult as:

cargo cult

noun

any of various Melanesian religious groups characterized by the belief that material wealth (such as money or manufactured goods) can be obtained through ritual worship

Here is the definition provided by Britannica

cargo cult, any of the religious movements chiefly, but not solely, in Melanesia that exhibit belief in the imminence of a new age of blessing, to be initiated by the arrival of a special “cargo” of goods from supernatural sources—based on the observation by local residents of the delivery of supplies to colonial officials. Tribal divinities, culture heroes, or ancestors may be expected to return with the cargo, or the goods may be expected to come through foreigners, who are sometimes accused of having intercepted material goods intended for the native peoples.

Here's Encyclopedia.com

Cargo Cults

Various forms of modern mythologies among the native peoples of Melanesia, arising from folk recollections of the riches brought by white traders, missionaries, or other colonizers. The earliest form of cargo cults appears to have developed in Fiji in the late nineteenth century when prophets would announce the imminent return of ancestors or white men on ships laden with luxuries.

During World War II, another form of cargo cult developed around the Red Cross planes transporting medical supplies to the Pacific Islands; modern leaders erected red crosses in the hope of bringing back supplies. In New Hebrides, there was a group that believed a white man would arrive in a red airplane laden with good things, and sticks were used to mark out a magic airstrip

Heres the French version (translated) of this article

Le cargo cult is a set of rites which appear at the end of the XIX^e century and in the first half of the XX^e century among aborigines, in reaction to the colonization de la Melanesia (Oceania). It consists in imitating them radio operators americans and Japanese commander of the supply (distributed by cargo plane) and more generally the technical and Western culture (means of transport, military parades, clothing, etc etc.) hoping to lead to the same effects, according to what has been called beliefs « millenarians », .

Heres the Simple English Version

Cargo cult is a name given to several religions. There are many cargo cults in Melanesia and New Guinea. These religions started when tribal societies saw Western things like radios. These things are called cargo. The tribespeople did not know how the things they saw worked, or how they were made.

The tribespeople copied the things they saw the Westerners do. They did this because they hoped gods would send them more cargo. Also sometimes, for example on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu, cult members worshipped Americans who brought the cargo.

Heres the Spanish version (translated)

With the name of office services or cargo cults (many authors retain the English construction cargo cult and use the term cults charge) various unconventional practices and rites are designated that arose in various tribes of Australia and Melanesia —especially in New Guinea— as a result of its contact with Western civilization.At the origin of cults charge there is a belief that western manufactures —cargo or charge— who came to the islands by various means came, ultimately, from divine spirits, and were destined by them for the benefit of the natives. Control of these assets, according to belief, would have been left to the whites, who had used non-legitimate methods for this. RacingCloud (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll give you a high-quality source that supports your position, Vivanco (2018), it's not freely available however fiveby pasted it in here (diff). I have no problem with the Merriam Webster source. Britannica's reliability is case-by-case, see WP:BRITANNICA, this article looks fine to me, and it's from back in 1998 and it's staff-authored rather than a contribution, so I think this is reasonably reliable. The Encyclopedia.com one I don't like, it's WP:TERTIARY and I don't see it listed in WP:RSPSRC. I searched the WP:RSN archives (here) and it seems to also be case-by-case. The particular passage you pasted appears to be quoting the "Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology", which I do not think is reliable; it appears to have been mentioned negatively at WP:RSN a few times, and a quick google indicates it's about A compendium of information on the occult sciences, magic, demonology, superstitions, spiritism, mysticism, metaphysics, psychical science, and parapsychology, with biographical and bibliographical notes and comprehensive indexes. For the other Wikipedia languages, see WP:TERTIARY Wikipedia articles may not be used as tertiary sources in other Wikipedia articles and WP:RSPWP, however you can feel free to take the sources used in those articles. I think the best sources for the lead are Lindstrom (2018), Vivanco (2018), Otto (2009), since they are academic secondary or tertiary sources written by subject-matter experts. Also good are Worsley (1957), other sources currently cited in the article, and perhaps Merriam-Webster and/or Britannica, but I don't think they're necessary given how much they echo more reliable sources.

For your added sentence The term originated after WWII when it was noted that indigenous Melanesians who had observed American soldiers and airplanes would build crude imitations of aircrafts and airports they believed would attract "cargo" I have agreed that it could make sense later in the lead (I suggested after the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph). I don't believe your sources support putting it earlier and the issue of due prominence still stands. Note that even in your sources they do not mention specifically constructing crude imitations of airplanes (Merriam-Webster doesn't mention planes, Britannica mentions landing strips are sometimes built, Encyclopedia.com (unreliable) says some built a red cross and marked an airstrip with sticks, the French article says they imitated radios, "means of transport", parades, clothing, Spanish doesn't mention it at all). And in more reliable sources, Vivanco (2018) doesn't mention it, Lindstrom (2018) mentions planes only once as a possible means by which cargo would arrive (it could also be by ship, recall that european colonialism had been occurring for many decades prior by ship rather than by plane), Otto (2009) doesn't talk about planes at all. So, again, there are a few sources indicating that at least one cargo cult built a physical imitation of an airplane, but there were way more cargo cults than that (Worsley (1957) says about seventy, Steinbauer (1979) (quoted in Otto (2009)), which you can access here or here), on pages 181-186 of Appendix 3 lists 186 cargo cults). So I'm just disputing specifically whether the line build[ing] crude imitations of aircrafts and airports is undue prominence, relative to the sources, to have in the first or second sentence of the article. For your first paragraph, I support the version you proposed here, however now you've said The compromised change earlier is too far compromised by trying to please you two so I'm unclear, what is your current proposal? Leijurv (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Im not using other wiki pages as sources, Im using them as examples that this article is not defined in any traditional source compared to any other definition online

The definition needs to reflect how the term is commonly understood without an overuse of intellectual gibberish RacingCloud (talk) 18:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The definition needs to reflect how the term is commonly understood I'm sorry but I don't think Wikipedia policy is on your side. Obviously I agree that in the pop culture informal understanding of cargo cults, building a crude imitation of an airplane is front and center, it's the main representative example that someone would give if explaining "what's a cargo cult". However, this is WP:OR. When writing a Wikipedia article, we give due weight and prominence (WP:DUE) relative to reliable sources. Constructing airplanes has minimal prominence, or is not mentioned at all, in the reliable sources. Leijurv (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Your entire argument is a hair split definition of the rules and deference to sources, that all make significant note of people imitating colonial behavior in manners that would obviously not yield any results, because they don't repeatedly mention fake airplanes. Even though the term was created to describe the John Frum group, who did build these fake airplanes

You want the mention of imitation placed 2nd in mentioning and the word technology to come second in "Western technology and practices" to hide it in the middle of a massive paragraph. It needs to be at the forefront because that's the easiest point of entry into the subject RacingCloud (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I think I am being exceedingly clear: I am taking issue specifically with your proposed line build crude imitations of aircrafts and airports. Your previous phrasing, where it said they imitated Western practices and technology, is much more in line with sources. Imitating their practices through ritual is well-supported and highly prominent in reliable sources. Building airplanes and airports is not. I don't think this is a "hair split", it's pretty clear. Sources don't talk much about airplanes, therefore we shouldn't talk much about airplanes. That's how WP:DUE works, and we don't get an exception because the reader "expects" us to give extra prominence to the popular conception of fake airplanes, that's not Wikipedia policy. Similarly, yes, I want it to say "practices and technology" not "technology and practices" because we can find a couple examples of imitating western technology, such as the examples of wooden rifles, radios, etc, whereas almost every source gives prominent mention of ritual imitation of western behaviors like flag-raising, marching, etc. Leijurv (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century. These ranged from tribal rituals incorporating misunderstood imitations of western practices (flag raising, marching), technology (wooden rifles, fake radios, in at least one case aircraft) and colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits (the John Frum movement), to syncretic movements that blended tribal beliefs and Christianity, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by attempting to create their own writing and education systems (Turaga nation)[10]. These belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would often foretell of approaching cataclysmic or apocalyptic events, Millenarianism, with promises of wealth or material abundance if followers believed in him and followed his rituals. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both. RacingCloud (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Some edits. Thoughts? It still doesn't quite connect the dots to explain that they thought the western goods, in the first place, came from their ancestors, not sure how best to add that without making the sentences even more convoluted and run-on.

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century. Cargo cult belief systems were characterized by charismatic strong men who would prophesize approaching cataclysmic events (millenarianism), with promises that those who followed his rituals to appease ancestral spirits would receive a utopian abundance of food and goods ("cargo"). These behaviors ranged from tribal rituals incorporating imitations of Western practices (flag raising, marching, colonial military parades) or technology (wooden rifles, fake radios, in at least one case aircraft) meant to secure cargo from ancestral spirits, to syncretic movements that blended tribal beliefs and Christianity, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by attempting to create their own writing and education systems. Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to colonial oppression and inequality disrupting traditional village life, or both. Leijurv (talk) 00:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century. Cargo cult belief systems were characterized by individuals prophesizing approaching cataclysm who promised that those who followed him would receive an abundance of "cargo", western manufactured goods and food Melanesians had seen shipped or air dropped into military bases who's creation was frequently misattributed to ancestral spirits and came into the hands of whites through illicit means.

These behaviors ranged from tribal rituals incorporating imitations of Western practices (flag raising, marching, colonial military parades) or technology (wooden rifles, radios, in at least one case a wooden aircraft) meant to secure cargo, to syncretic movements that blended tribal beliefs and Christianity, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by attempting to create their own writing and education systems.

Anthropologists have described cargo cults as rooted in pre-existing aspects of Melanesian society, as a reaction to western interference of traditional village life, or both. RacingCloud (talk) 02:25, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This is tough, I feel like it can't be in just one sentence, but it also doesn't really make sense if you mess up the ordering. Like, obviously you'd want the 2nd sentence to explain, in general, what the average cargo cult was about. It makes me want to write something like: (informally, paraphrasing, not actually suggesting this wording) they generally believed that appealing to ancestral spirits would bring food and goods, even before westerners arrived, and once the westerners arrived they synthesized the flood of incoming cargo with those beliefs and ended up with a variety of different outcomes, but many of them involved, to some extent, appealing to those ancestors through ritual in the hopes of acquiring cargo for themselves But this is a bit vague and somewhat out of order. Hm. I wonder if the best way would be to explain millenarian cults first, then explain what exactly was "syncretic" about them in a subsequent sentence?

This is a total shot in the dark rewrite, how does this sound? Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century. Cargo cult belief systems were characterized by leaders prophesizing approaching cataclysm and promising that those who followed his rituals to appease ancestral spirits would receive a utopian abundance of food and goods ("cargo"). These beliefs reacted to the events of Western colonization of the region, particularly through the belief that their ancestral spirits were responsible for the abundance of goods that arrived with the Western ships, leading to outcomes ranging from tribal rituals incorporating imitations of Western practices (flag raising, marching, colonial military parades) or technology (wooden rifles, radios, in at least one case a wooden aircraft) meant to secure cargo, to syncretic movements that blended tribal beliefs and Christianity, to even a rejection of reliance on western goods and attempts to emulate more technologically advanced cultures by attempting to create their own writing and education systems. Leijurv (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The Intro should just be:

Cargo cults were diverse spiritual and political movements that arose among indigenous Melanesians following Western colonization of the region in the late 19th century.

And then the history of the word, its origins, the anthropologic views on the term and the traits generally associated with the phenomenon should compose the bulk of the article, The intro does too many things that require their own sections RacingCloud (talk) 19:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I think a single sentence is too short per MOS:LEAD Leijurv (talk) 06:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I've tried condensing the current lead [9], which moves the "cargo" being western material goods considerably closer to the top. I'm open to changing words like "most" to "typically", condensing the second sentence, etc, but I still think the current version is a better base than RacingCloud's proposal, which doesn't really properly address what the defining attributes of typical "cargo cults" even are. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it! I don't see it as super different than before (which is what you were going for). Here's what I'd take issue with: Although the practices and beliefs of cargo cults widely varied between groups, anthropologists have identified a number of elements common to most groups. These include: This is about 10x too many words for the meaning conveyed. Also consider the previous sentence already called them "diverse". Can we condense this significantly? Perhaps: Most cargo cults involved:? I appreciate the removal of although this was not a universal feature... as I saw that phrase as overly hedging and I only kept it to appease Andy. And the overall concern remains, that the order is just a bit strange. The current order is 1. ancestors will bring cargo 2. this typically included western goods 3. they thought those goods came from ancestors 4. the rituals were meant to appeal to these ancestors. This is all true and sourced and neutral and all that, it's just not the best order. Compare to this slightly edited version of what racingcloud proposed: These practices would range from tribal rituals incorporating colonial military parades meant to secure goods, or "cargo", from ancestral spirits and misunderstood imitations of western practices and technology This order is 1. they engaged in ritual 2. the rituals incorporated colonial mimicry 3. it was meant to secure goods 4. from ancestral spirits 5. and the imitations were meant to acquire western goods through this whole misunderstanding. Now I want to clearly and directly say that I think racingcloud's phrasing trips at the finish line and that #5 is unclear, as you can see in my above messages complaining about that exact area. The order I'd like would be something along the lines of: 1. they believed their ancestors would bring cargo 2. they appealed to these ancestors through ritual 3. they misunderstood colonial logistics as having originated from their ancestors 4. they mimicked western practices into their rituals in the hopes of enticing more such goods. Leijurv (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I think you underplay the importance of the prophets and their millenarian prophecies, which are as central to conception of the cargo cult as "cargo" itself is. We need to mention the prophets (and arguably their millenarian prophecies) first to provide context, as is done in Worsley's definition. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely agreed and I apologize for leaving that unsaid. For example we could take racing cloud's sentence about that and put that as the 2nd overall. Or, we could replace the intro "most cargo cults believed:" with how it was before like "millenarianism etc etc, most of these prophets predicted:" Leijurv (talk) 22:32, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I've slightly tweaked the wording, condensed it down, and fixed a typo here Leijurv (talk) 19:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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ZME is a reputable scientific news site, and they more clearly describe and document the phenomenon than this page does. Talk does nothing if for over a year now this article has become unintelligible gibberish. The current state isn't a compromise, it's a farce RacingCloud (talk) 21:20, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

It's easy to "clearly describe" something when you're uncritically repeating the pop culture narrative about natives building replicas of airplanes after seeing American soldiers during the second world war, rather than trying to describe the "heterogeneous, uncertain, and confusing" reality of cargo cults as they actually were and had existed since the 19th century. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Because that's the most easily identifiable case of the phenomenon. It's not separate from it, its simply the most obvious and easy to explain example from an outside perspective of a very complex set of ideas. Without a basic understanding, the nuance and detail given from the rest of the article is meaningless RacingCloud (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)