Talk:Kenneth MacAlpin

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Kenneth MacAlpin was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (June 9, 2021). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Kenneth MacAlpine was King of the Dalraida Scots who became King of Scots which was the combined Scots and Picts.

The way this article is written it reads that he was King of the Picts as though he was a Pict. He was not a Pict but a Dalraida Scot. Therefore this article should be edited to show this more accurately.

Presently it reads:

"Cináed mac Ailpín (Modern Gaelic: Coinneach mac Ailpein)[1], commonly Anglicised as Kenneth MacAlpin and known in most modern regnal lists as Kenneth I (died 13 February 858) was king of the Picts and, according to national myth, first king of Scots, earning him the posthumous nickname of An Ferbasach, "The Conqueror".[2] Kenneth's undisputed legacy was to produce a dynasty of rulers who claimed descent from him. Even though he cannot be regarded as the father of Scotland, he was the founder of the dynasty which ruled that country for much of the medieval period."

Recommend it should read:

"Cináed mac Ailpín (Modern Gaelic: Coinneach mac Ailpein)[1], commonly Anglicised as Kenneth MacAlpin and known in most modern regnal lists as Kenneth I (died 13 February 858) was king of the Dalraida Scots who conquered the Picts and, according to national myth, became first king of Scots, earning him the posthumous nickname of An Ferbasach, "The Conqueror".[2] Kenneth's undisputed legacy was to produce a dynasty of rulers who claimed descent from him. Even though he cannot be regarded as the father of Scotland, he was the founder of the dynasty which ruled that country for much of the medieval period."

Thank you. (97.89.117.137 (talk) 01:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Recommended by who? You're just repeating the national myth, without reference to recent studies & discoveries. Dál Riata was conquered by the Picts and destroyed by the Vikings. The "ruling" families of the Picts, Dál Riata, Strathclyde Britons, Northumbrians, Irish and later Scandinavians all intermarried, these people were not called Scots, it's a later English word. The folk in former Bernicia and Strathclyde could hardly have got used to Gaelic before they ended up speaking "Scots" anyway. After all it didn't take anyone conquering Alba before it ended up as Scotland then Britain and everyone speaking English. Jameselmo (talk) 19:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting discussion since it seems that it's not clear who exactly the Scots or the Picts really were. Here is an excerpt from "Memoirs of Clan Fingon" published in 1899 during which Alpin is referred to as King of Picts:

Tighernac also makes mention of the fact that Lochene, the son of Fingen, King of the Cruithne or Picts, died A.D. 645, that Kenneth, son of Alpin, King of the Picts, died A.D. 858, and that Donald, son of Alpin, King of the Picts, died A.D. 863. On the other hand the family Trees all agree in tracing the Clan to Ailpein, King of Scotland, commonly called Alpin, who was slain by Brudus, King of the Picts, from whom he had wrested the sceptre of that Kingdom A.D. circ. 835.

But as everyone knows, there are plenty of references that refer to Alpin and Kenneth MacAlpin as king of the Dalriadic Scots.

--Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 04:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"these people were not called Scots" Where did you get that one? Were you ever educated or did you just have someone read it to you from a biased book? Scoti was a Latin name for the Irish Gaels used from the time Britannia was a Roman province. It later became more associated with the Gaelicized north Britain via Dal Riada but was also used for other Irish in Britain such as in Cornwall and Wales. Lately revisionists using absence of evidence and archaeological misinformation have argued that Gaels were native to Scotland lol, the same as was tried decades ago to claim very few Anglo Saxons came to Britain. Pots not people lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.195.39 (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Overly Effeminate Painting of Kenneth

Just.. whats up with that? you guys seem to be debating his origins but one thing I think we can agree on, he was kickaz for uniting the realms into Alba, founding the clan system and founding a Scottish kingship that lasted around a thousand years. So.. why the foppery? The medieval depictions of him were much better in my opinion.

Dava4444 (talk) 06:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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The Negro Rulers of Scotland and the British Isles

I've been aware of this book for some time:

Johnson, John L. (2020), The Negro Rulers of Scotland and the British Isles, Chesterfield, MO: Johnson Books, Inc., ISBN 978-1734975123

I didn't think anyone would actually take it seriously or try to reference it in a Wikipedia article, except perhaps as an example of the extremes of Afrocentrism, in its frankly bizarre historical revisionism. It's a very peculiar book, self-published with childish illustrations. It absolutely is not an academic work and is as far removed from a WP:RS is it is possible to get. Nevertheless, it made its way into this article yesterday. The editor has a history of accusing people who revert his edits of doing so for reasons of right-wing ideology. Let me head that off by saying that no serious historian of the early medieval period in Scotland takes such a position, and they are overwhelmingly of a liberal persuasion. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

854?

Is 854 a significant year in the reign(s) of Mac Alpin? In this book I find "854: Kenneth, King of Scots, becomes King of united Scots and Picts.":

Hay of Hayfield, John, ed. (1960). "List of Dates Important in Early Scottish History". Tartan Tapestry: An Anthology of Scotland, Past, Present, Future. Glasgow: William Maclellan. p. 36 – via Internet Archive.

— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd treat that as an unreliable source, one of many books by amateur historians. 854 is in fact the year John of Fordun claimed Cináed mac Ailpin died and was succeeded by his brother Domnall mac Ailpín, but this is at odds with the contemporaneous Annals of Ulster, which we can view as being inherently more accurate. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]